169 points•rbanffy•about 10 hours ago•84 comments•

84 comments

msdzabout 10 hours ago
Regardless of what one personally thinks about the ICC, this isn’t a good look for neither the US nor Europe.

For the U.S., because sanctioning an “unpleasant”, but in essence harmless individual (geopolitically speaking) is ridiculous. Falling victim to de-banking alone can really ruin one’s life.

And for the EU, because it once again showcases the dependence on U.S. systems for just about anything tech-related in everyday life and work.

nostrademonsabout 9 hours ago
It undermines the idea of the U.S. as a neutral arbiter for law, order, and free commerce. That may always have been a fiction, but it's a very useful fiction because it underpins U.S. soft power. It's much easier to get consent for being the world hegemon when you act like a benevolent, disinterested hegemon. Once you start becoming a participant - and overriding other institutions that are ostensibly providing neutral, impartial justice just because their decisions are inconvenient for you - you are essentially placing yourself below them and undermining your own legitimacy.

Neutrality and objectivity may be a fiction, but it's one of the most useful fictions that have been invented in the last 500 years.

jfengelabout 9 hours ago
America has apparently decided that the fiction is no longer useful. At least not to us.

I can't say I'm happy about that, but it's a fact now. We cannot put that genie back in the bottle. Even a change of leadership soon will not alter the realization that it can change back on a moment's notice.

So... we will find out.

nazgulsenpaiabout 9 hours ago
As an American, I don't think anyone informed has ever perceived the US as neutral, at least not since the 20th century. We have veto power with control of the US dollar, the ability of the US military to engage in any part of the world (historically, much less so in current year), and being a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

In my opinion, the sanctioning of these judges simply comes across as a petty tantrum of a nation in decline, using the remaining tools it has at it's disposal to try to get its way.

edit: typo

gradus_adabout 9 hours ago
As you say neutrality is a fiction.

Everything the US does and has done is aimed at defending itself and its interests, which includes its allies, as it should, and as it must.

The extent to which these actions appeared neutral was just a product of the overwhelming power of the US and overwhelming unity - by virtue of deference - prevalent among the Western powers during the Cold War, in the shadow of a common enemy.

Global neutral institutions exist on a fictional foundation that becomes thinner by the day. For substantial matters on which there is no rational answer, the only solution is the exercise of power.

tmp10423288442about 7 hours ago
In this case, the US and Israel were never parties to the ICC, so the ICC was never neutral with respect to them. If they had submitted to the ICC, I think your point would be valid.
wereHamsterabout 10 hours ago
EU is not necessarily dependent on the US in all the cases that are listed in the article. Take AXA, the insurance company. They could probably survive doing business just in the EU and withdraw entirely out of the US market. But for them it's more lucrative to piss off one judge rather than lose the US share of profits. As the article describes, it's a business decision. But not one that necessarily means life or death (for the company).
abdullahkhalidsabout 9 hours ago
My understanding from glancing at the hopefully correct sanctions statement [1] is that they are secondary in nature (see for example Sec 3). So the insurance company will face all the same sanctions that the ICC judge is facing if they serve them. They banks will cutoff the insurance company as well, because the banks themselves use US infrastructure.

The only solution would be similar to what China exercised. The EU passes an order telling all EU entities to not comply with US sanctions or face legal problems. Then it comes down to how the US responds and whether EU can take that hit.

[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/02/impo...

QDwQ1about 10 hours ago
EU politicians should grow some balls and force their companies to ignore US sanctions in cases like these
recroadabout 9 hours ago
Why is she unpleasant?
anigbrowlabout 8 hours ago
The use of quotes indicates that that's the US perception of her under the current administration. You can read the relevant executive order/public statements if you need insight into why Trump and his appointees feel that way.
koolbaabout 9 hours ago
> Regardless of what one personally thinks about the ICC, this isn’t a good look for neither the US nor Europe.

> For the U.S., because sanctioning an “unpleasant”, but in essence harmless individual (geopolitically speaking) is ridiculous. Falling victim to de-banking alone can really ruin one’s life.

Not a good look sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s effective over the near term. Especially if they keep expanding this to include more of the ICC bench.

That’s the whole point of such sanctions anyway. It might feel different because it’s a Canadian judge and not a Russian oligarch. But at the core the USA wants to put pressure on something and the means is indirectly applied to an individual.

microtonalabout 9 hours ago
Not a good look sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s effective over the near term. Especially if they keep expanding this to include more of the ICC bench.

Yes, effective in speeding up decoupling of the EU banking system from the US and quickly reducing the use of the systems of Mastercard and Visa. Last year's sanctions on ICC individuals already had a large effect. For instance, the fear of further dependence on US companies has already caused blocking of the sale of the Dutch company Solvinity (who maintain the Dutch digital ID systems) to Kyndryl and has put some countries on the path of moving off Office 365, Exchange and even Windows.

It's just insane stupidity by the US administration. It's very unlikely that an US official would ever be arrested for the ICC, allies wouldn't go there. So, it's just putting Europe on a path to purchase less and less from US service/software companies to protect Benny, who could simply avoid being arrested by not going to a country that joined the ICC.

MSFT_Edgingabout 9 hours ago
> Falling victim to de-banking alone

This is especially ironic given how many Trump supporters had "de-banking" as their main issue.

IIRC most of them were "debanked" due to crypto fraud or other financial crimes.

mindslightabout 3 hours ago
The entire destructionist movement is based around channeling frustrations on very real issues into mere ways of making money for Dear Leader. When you zoom in, even core issues like immigration reform fit the pattern - still giving a pass to the major employers of illegal labor, modulo the policy-performative vice signalling of torture camps. Grumpism is effectively just one big arbitrage of ideals. In a sane world, the people who care most about the issues "championed" by the destructionists would be the loudest critics of them, as it's their political capital that is being destroyed! But apparently most of them are too busy "winning" to perform one iota of self-reflection.
throwawayfifoabout 7 hours ago
This is doubly "ironic" considering the left was all for debanking right-wing dissenters (Freedom Convoy) when they were in power.
DaSHackaabout 9 hours ago
> IIRC most of them were "debanked" due to crypto fraud or other financial crimes.

How would you even know this? Was there a poll done across every Trump supporter where they admitted to committing financial fraud? Do you mean to say Trump's 'pundits' and not his 'supporters'?

Also, the majority of pushback to debanking that I've seen among MAGA types I know IRL is more centered around the 2022 trucker protests and the debatably unjust reaction from the Canadian government.

teekertabout 9 hours ago
"I went home and Alexa wouldn't talk to me," she told NPR's Steve Inskeep.

ICC judge and she has a device like this in her house. I think that she did not read any Snowden related books.

Furthermore it's a bit of a missed opportunity for her to not move to Proton, NextCloud, GrapheneOS, and show how she can still live her life with many modern conveniences. She could find some non-over-complient companies and list them, I'd go for those from now on, great PR. But alas, she is not a Techy. Maybe Meredith Whittaker can pay her a visit and show her a thing or two. I'd like to see that happen. Whittaker will be in the Netherlands soon for an Honorary degree [0]

[0] https://vu.nl/nl/nieuws/2026/vu-eredoctoraat-voor-voorvechte...

slowinabout 9 hours ago
I agree that she should not have an Alexa, but how do you pay for Proton, your ISP, your electricity bill, hosting... when you are debanked? Not having health insurance is also not solvable with technology unfortunately.
teekertabout 9 hours ago
I agree it's not easy, but someone in her position could put out a call for companies that would support her (and benefit from very good PR in the process). Ie, perhaps the Dutch ethical (and low-tech) bank Triodos would be a candidate? I agree such companies would really put their behinds on the line, so maybe that won't work...
Planktonneabout 10 hours ago
> "We are judges, and we are being told that rather than deciding our cases on the basis of the facts and the law before us, as we are duty bound to do, we're being asked to decide the cases or not decide them in accordance with the wishes of the U.S. government," she said.

Just incredibly naked corruption.

layer8about 8 hours ago
She’s just rephrasing the intent of the sanctions here I believe, not claiming that anyone else is making those demands.
impossibleforkabout 5 hours ago
Having seen some other texts, at least one other judge (Guillou) has really strange attitudes of the role of the court, discussing the European project, etc. in articles about the court.

The fellow does not give the impression of understand fully that he's sitting on an internal court with its own powers, and the way US/Polish/etc. crimes have been excluded from the Afghanistan investigation even though people relevant in such an investigation are particularly easy to interview since so many are in Europe I think these people genuinely do not understand their job, or have given themselves another job in their minds.

Prost is now basically doing public outreach, Guillou was doing public outreach and diplomacy trying to interact with the EU to get it to enforce its blocking statute regarding sanctions on the court-- all this stuff instead of using the powers they're granted by Rome statute to deal with this specific problem.

They have the remedy. Anyone retaliating against the court can be ordered arrested, and the signatories have to do it or they're in breach of the treaty.

The level of subservience of the judges is just ridiculous.

hananovaabout 10 hours ago
> One of the most serious examples is her health insurance. Prost receives coverage through AXA, the French company that provides insurance for the court. She says the company has refused to pay her claims even though it is not legally required to follow the U.S. sanctions.

Then it is high time to make the company legally required not to follow the U.S. sanctions.

JoBradabout 9 hours ago
I don’t think this is the right option: if the target were legitimate, then we would welcome this level of impact. But if our (US) partner countries had the option to declare themselves exempt from applying individual sanctions, that seems like a good escape hatch.
tmnvixabout 8 hours ago
If the target were legitimate then maybe the EU could stick to respecting legitimate sanctions.

What many people seem to forget is that the US is in the habit of issuing unilateral sanctions. They are not legitimate in the way UN sanctions are.

PorciiVorbescabout 9 hours ago
>Then it is high time to make the company legally required not to follow the U.S. sanctions.

Preach, it's not like the US is gagging for it when it comes to following EU laws and sanctions either.

Historically, we went along following US sanctions despite not always agreeing with them, because the US was the one ensuring most of our defensive capabilities in Europe, but Trump set that contract on fire and told us to pay for our own defense, and we said fine, but now that we're remilitarizing on our own dime to defend ourselves without the US, why should we still follow the whims of US politics anymore? You can't have your cake and eat it too Orange Man.

To quote Theoden from LotR: "You Have No Power Here!"

slimabout 9 hours ago
It's incredible how much local banks and insurances obey US rules like they were foreign entities
JSR_FDEDabout 10 hours ago
This is at once thuggish and petty. If the US Govt doesn’t recognize the ICC then…don’t? Going after individual judges is mafia tactics.

It’s also guaranteed to backfire - no judge who by definition deeply believes in the mission and legitimacy of the ICC is going to be deterred by these tactics.

jeroenhdabout 9 hours ago
The ICC issued an arrest warrant for Netanyahu because of the genocide Israel is committing, that's what upset the Americans. I doubt even Trump would go this far if it wasn't for that.
PorciiVorbescabout 9 hours ago
> that's what upset the Americans

Which Americans? I think it just upset only the Zionists, Epstein class, members of congress bought and paid for by Israel(AIPAC) including the US presidential administration, plus the boomers who've been brainwashed by decades of Zionist propaganda on TV, but I imagine a large part of US voter base, especially under-35s, don't agree with this if polled.

At least every American I know in Europe(not a representative sample size, I know) is vehemently against supporting what Israel is doing.

sebzim4500about 8 hours ago
I mean if I and a group of my friends got together to plan the kidnap of a foreign leader I would not be surprised if it pissed off that leader's allies and they sanctioned me.

This would apply no matter how justified I felt that kidnapping the leader of a nuclear state would somehow help world peace.

RobotToasterabout 2 hours ago
America already assassinated a foreign leader, during peace negotiations.

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