143 points•vrganj•8 days ago•131 comments•

131 comments

guytv8 days ago
Israeli here.

Just a reminder: the ICC was founded in the aftermath of WWII, when Jews had no voice and no one fighting for them.

Israel’s finance minister, one of the most senior ministers in the government:

“No one in the world will allow us to starve two million civilians to death, even though it may be justified and moral, until our hostages are returned.”

Israel’s defense minister:

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.”

Someone should prosecute those bastards.

OgsyedIE8 days ago
If Milosevic was backed by Pennsylvania Avenue, he would still be in power today.
vrganj8 days ago
There's an argument to be made that the man sitting in Pennsylvania Avenue is a modern-day Milosevic himself. I'm sure they'd get along swimmingly.
kuerbel8 days ago
So sad to see that the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin only exists in traces anymore. He was not perfect, but after Peres it mostly went downhill... Ehud Olmert comes to mind as a positive influence in Israeli politics though.
throwaway1988468 days ago
Ehud Olmert was corrupt tho, he did have a plan to leave the west bank, it will be interesting to think where would we have been if it happens. Probably back to occupying sooner or later because of rocket attacks.
throwaway1988468 days ago
ICJ was founded on the aftermath not ICC.
mentalgear8 days ago
Thank you for speaking up, the political leadership indeed is a shame and it's important for citizens to speak out and let the world know that these blood-hungry bastards do not represent their citizens.
lrasinen8 days ago
ICC was established in 2002, hardly "in the aftermath."
mentalgear8 days ago
It's really sad seeing the international order, erected primarily by the US as a driving force after WW2, now being torn down by the current US administration to the detriment not only of global safety but also the US itself.

Giving up the best soft-power levers they had in an attempt to replace them with coarse, obvious and ineffective hard-power beat-sticks is not only foolish but history shows never works well or long term.

JDEW8 days ago
The US has always been actively hostile to the ICC [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Prot...?

celticninja8 days ago
The US never signed up to the ICC, rules for thee and not for me as usual from our Yankee 'friends'
throwaway1988468 days ago
How is that "rules for thee and not for me" of they didn't sign up and didn't want the ICC to have any jurisdiction for unsigned states (including for other countries)

Edit: I guess you could point out Biden justifying Putin's warrant as a hypocrisy.

glimshe8 days ago
Keep in mind that the US has never joined the ICC. China, Russia, India and, in fact, a large portion of the world (including the Arab world) aren't part of it.

The ICC, irrespective of its merits, represents a somewhat narrow point of view.

pbiggar8 days ago
The problem is that the US used its soft power for evil, not for good. WW2 was the last war where the US were the good guys.

With the US' war of aggression on Iran, it just doesnt care what it loses in its quest to support Israel.

wolvoleo8 days ago
Agreed mostly but there's some exceptions. Like the first gulf war, America did come to the aid of Kuwait as it was attacked by Iraq.

Of course this was motivated by oil interests and not human rights but I can't call them the 'bad guys' here.

throwaway1988468 days ago
Is supporting one ally a war of aggression? Explain your criteria.
472828478 days ago
Which country besides the US has the audacity to think it has extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere? To me, it is obvious that this is violent behavior and will lead to defensive action by others, and more violence, not more peace.

If it was the “hard power” it claims, what is it that makes “it” so afraid? To me, it is fairly obvious that this is how a threatened being behaves, in “childish ways”, before it fully falls apart.

mrkeen8 days ago
You may not have intended it this way, but your top paragraph could easily be repurposed as a talking point for the current administration. What does the I in ICC stand for?
ctolsen8 days ago
If that's a talking point it's a stupid one. The Rome Statutes are only valid in territories that have agreed to be bound by them.
mittensc7 days ago
Counter point: ICC enforces laws within its members territories.

Don't like it, don't do genocide or dont visit its member countries.

nephihaha8 days ago
The PRC.
jabron8 days ago
Where?
grumple8 days ago
The ICC itself and its member states believe they have extraterritorial rights to interfere with legal practices elsewhere, which is sort of the whole point.
ctolsen8 days ago
The ICC claims rights in territories where the sovereign power in that territory has signed and incorporated a treaty that grants those rights. ICC jurisdiction is domestic law.
Aeolun8 days ago
The US has really degenerated into a strongman state hasn’t it? This is more like what they tell us to expect from China, but what we actually get from the US.
elzbardico8 days ago
This is what the propaganda, from school to hollywood, taught us to expect from China and USSR.
bamboozled8 days ago
Which goes to show that China under Xi is probably the best "super power" enemy the US could ever hope for. What happens after Xi is anyone's get but I doubt it will be so benign.
Gud8 days ago
Why wouldn't it be so "benign"? Unlike the USA, China seems to have pretty sane leadership in general.
beng-nl8 days ago
Total speedrun.
impossiblefork8 days ago
There's been a lot of stuff bringing us back to the 2002-2008 era, with the occupation of Afghanistan, etc., now that the Brits are finally investigating the SAS men who murdered people in their beds etc., so I've been reading about the old El-Masri case and the CIA black sites in Europe, and the use of state secrets privilege to block El-Masri's lawsuit in the US, the Polish unwillingness to seriously investigate.

The only two good things are I think the ECtHR's willingness to demand an investigation, and one can question whether the CoM of the CoE have done their job in ensuring implementation, but they're at least regularly checking whether there are implementation attempts.

But what struck me was the endless deference of the ICC. They've limited their Afghanistan investigation to Afghani perpetrators even though they have access to vast numbers of Europeans with information about the black sites and the investigation of these things is even more tractable than investigating things in Afghanistan, and I think it's this deference that is the ICC's problem.

The ICC actually has powers sufficient to deal with the sanctions completely, with no need for aid from European states in any regard.

It's to the point where anyone participating in anything affecting the ICC's ability to do its job can be ordered arrested and confined indefinitely. The ICC can literally order the arrest of the workforce of an entire bank if it participates in anything having to do with retaliation against the ICC. The only thing preventing milder things like ordering the arrest of the CEO and board is the ICC's insane deference. They can also apply these things to the American political leadership who have passed the sanctions.

So I really don't understand the Americans. The ICC is doing exactly what they want. They're not even subpoenaing Europeans who sit right here with knowledge about the black sites and torture, even under intense criticism from victims who are of course pushing for investigation.

The article really misunderstands what sort of powers the ICC has. The ICC doesn't need the blocking statute to end enforcement of sanctions, they can order the arrest and indefinite detainment of anyone participating in retaliation against the court.

Sabinus7 days ago
>The ICC can literally order the arrest of the workforce of an entire bank if it participates in anything having to do with retaliation against the ICC.

I would suggest that the reason that the ICC hasn't done this yet is not deference, but because they don't want to have to force a bank to choose between having their business essentially destroyed by being sanctioned by the US, and being arrested by the court.

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