236 points•gmays•about 6 hours ago•217 comments•

217 comments

snorrahabout 5 hours ago
djoldmanabout 5 hours ago
It often strikes me as quite the biased and one-sided take when a tax-paying entity is called out by the press for tax avoidance (NOT tax evasion, which is illegal). (yes TFA implies that Meta is breaking the law, I'm not talking about situations where entities break the law).

Previously we've seen "The Secret IRS Files" from Propublica as well as other coverage of tax avoidance that never resulted in tax evasion charges. Coverage wide enough that it's arguably safe to assume that no laws were broken because there was quite the demand for an enforcement response.

The funny thing is that a more accurate title for these pieces would be, "Federal Government Allows [tax-paying entity] a Massive Tax Break." And then the piece would be all about how the senate, congress, and president either explicitly wanted there to be this extreme tax loophole or was incompetent and allowed something they didn't mean to allow.

Folks are continually getting upset and riled up about players in the economic system instead of who and what makes the rules.

An analogous example: everyone got cranky about Martin Shkreli, mostly because he raised prices on Deraprim, although also because many would label him a brash jerk. But he went to jail for finance stuff, not raising prices. Why? Because raising prices in the way he did wasn't something the feds thought was illegal or wasn't something they thought he could be convicted of.

Folks get mad at Musk, Zuckerberg, etc... if they're doing something illegal, ok yea that makes sense. If folks are mad about actions that are legal, it makes zero sense to be mad at the actor. Be mad at the people/entities who created the legal loopholes and laws.

csallenabout 4 hours ago
We need both.

Public shame and malice towards individuals who violate expected norms is actually a fairly good deterrent toward would-be bad actors. I'm sure there are many millions of instances per day where people decide not to do untoward things because they care about their reputations.

But on the flip side, you are also correct. It's important that public attention also be directed towards the systems that incentivize and enable bad behavior, and the people who create those systems. Patching laws, shaping incentives, and empowering a distributed system of judges and courts to handle violations is ultimately much cleaner, fairer, predictable, wide-reaching, and (therefore) more effective than disorganized mob-led shame campaigns.

Unfortunately, several things work against this:

1. It requires much more time, education, intelligence, and emotional self-control to care about system design over simply shaming others. These four things aren't abundantly common in most populaces.

2. Lawmakers and politicians have their own incentives to redirect public attention away from themselves. And they can take advantage of #1 to do this, which is basically what demagoguery is.

3. Similarly, media companies have their own incentive, which is to increase clicks and shares and subscribers. And appealing to base emotions with strong headlines works 100x better than discussing complex laws and systems. Research shows that the #1 emotion that leads to sharing online is outrage.

Auncheabout 3 hours ago
In this case, the established norm is for a business to legally avoid paying as much tax as possible. It's more than just a norm. It is extremely unusual for any business owner to do otherwise. It's 100% up to the government whether they approve this tax break.
djoldmanabout 3 hours ago
I could hardly agree more.

I would say that we get the one (public outrage at specific companies/people) but not the other (focus on the legislation). Unfortunately, the latter has the controlling direct effect.

awbviousabout 3 hours ago
Simplified messaging can perhaps work. I have come to the conclusion that taking money out of politics is the only way out. "Hate the game, not the player" only works when the player doesn't get to set the rules of the game. Shame those who have enough money to influence politics and either are known to "donate" (bribe) politics or donate darkly (with more money/power should be more transparency). And shame anyone who perpetuates money in politics.
darksaintsabout 3 hours ago
> Public shame and malice towards individuals who violate expected norms is actually a fairly good deterrent toward would-be bad actors. I'm sure there are many millions of instances per day where people decide not to do untoward things because they care about their reputations

I do agree for most people. But the problem is that the worst people have no shame. People like Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, etc., used to try to fake humility and act like normal people, but that ship has sailed and now they seem to take glee in acting like shitbags and getting away with it. Which is why we need laws.

packersvilleabout 2 hours ago
Shame I get. There is healthy shame, though difficult to achieve sometimes. Malice you lose me. I see Malice as the intent to hurt retributively. Why do you think malice is needed?
danbrucabout 5 hours ago
It is perfectly fine to be upset about certain lawful behaviors because lawful does not mean good. This does also not exclusively apply to companies, people can be law abiding assholes. And it works in the other direction, too, sometimes unlawful behavior is good behavior.
jvanderbotabout 4 hours ago
But GP comment is not about how you feel about it. It is about where you direct that anger. If you dislike what a powerful entity does, well, we the people are supposed to have a recourse in our representatives. Why precisely is it that we feel like we do not?
NikolaNovakabout 4 hours ago
I was with you, but no, this is where you lost me:

"If folks are mad about actions that are legal, it makes zero sense to be mad at the actor."

There are people with mindset "I will try to be an overall decent human being and maintain some awareness and empathy of others", and there are the "I will be as much of a selfish asshole as the legal system allows me to, and wreak untold damage in the endless game of whack-a-mole".

I think in fact more of us should be gunning after the second kind :). To paraphrase you, It makes zero sense for me to be OK with fundamentally anti-social, anti-humanity humanoids.

freedombenabout 4 hours ago
I think you're both right, it depends a lot more on the specific situation. For example if Corporation A finds a loophole that allows them to dump toxic waste in the river, let's be pissed at both sides. If Corporation B reacts to incentives in the tax code to build an AI data center, you can be mad at data centers if you believe they poison the earth and waste resources, but you should also be mad at the government who created those incentives in the first place.
djoldmanabout 3 hours ago
In relationships between people one interacts with directly, I agree: there are "social contracts" that aren't laws that people in the USA generally follow. Knowing about them and not following them makes someone a jerk.

Wreaking "untold damage" sounds like something where a law should exist to prevent it unless there's some incredibly important counter benefit.

alex1138about 4 hours ago
Welcome to Hacker News with all the temporarily embarrassed millionaires
bdauvergneabout 4 hours ago
The problem is that law is a malleable mater and not all interpretation and use should be accepted, there is the spirit and the letter (don't know if it's an usual expression in english).

Dunno muchabout the US tax code but in the french tax code when there is a tax break there are practical conditions and an information intention / context by the legislative assembly in the law project. If french deputies create a tax break to incentivize research and you use it to get a tax break given investment in infrastructure not at all linked to any research, even if you match the practical conditions it's considered an abuse/diverting of the law and the french tax administration can completely cancel your tax break and you'll have to sue them in our administrative justice branch to change their decision.

siver_johnabout 4 hours ago
"spirit and the letter (of the law)" is a common phrase in English. For the next part IANAL.

It appears in the US that generally the letter of the law matters more in legal proceedings than the spirit of what was written. Though there is sometimes debate (especially around the constitution) as to what the words meant at the time the law was written which give a little legal freeway to the spirit. From what I have seen though these cases generally deal more with rights/civil liberties than laws which affect corporations/tax codes/processes/etc. There is greater freedom to interpret the spirit of the law in criminal cases (e.g. jury nullification).

freedombenabout 4 hours ago
That sounds like a nightmare for the business owner, and a huge boon for the legal industry (aka lawyers). Uncertainty/ambiguity in law is poisonous for someone trying to operate in the law, and that goes for everyone from big corp to individuals just trying to function in society.
golly_ned12 minutes ago
> Folks get mad at Musk, Zuckerberg, etc... if they're doing something illegal, ok yea that makes sense. If folks are mad about actions that are legal, it makes zero sense to be mad at the actor

You're claiming that legality is the necessary & sufficient condition for. Legal != Good, Right, Just, Moral, etc.

Many things are illegal, but still you'd have to be an immoral, evil asshole to do.

simonwabout 5 hours ago
> Under a tax credit created in the 1980s to spur innovation, companies can get a rebate for supplies, but only if they are being tested in an experimental effort, not standard business operations. Meta is claiming that the costly A.I. computer chips it buys from companies, including Nvidia, are entitled to a taxpayer-provided discount as part of the experiment. [...]

> The company started claiming the credit for the data centers two years ago. Since then, Meta’s savings from the credit have soared, trimming almost $4 billion off its tax bill last year, filings show.

Yeah... as a US citizen and taxpayer I think I'd like that $4 billion back.

burnerRhodov3about 4 hours ago
Spend millions on taking Amazon to court -> Spin months getting congressional support for law change -> two years later, Amazon pays a settlement and the government buys 200 MOABs, Amazon now does a double dutch/ irish/ Cayman islands tax evasion. The game continues.

For these companies, it's totally worth doing illegal tax shit. Even if they are forced to pay, they pay it years down the line, so the current cost of capital starts to come into play.

yieldcrvabout 4 hours ago
To satisfy the experiments vs operations criteria, all they have to do is deploy a software update to the inference library for slightly higher tokens per second, and compare, you know, in an experiment

This is something we all do

pitchforks down, its the reporter and the non technical accountants that are wrong and both groups should be replaced

tt24about 5 hours ago
Don’t worry, you won’t be getting any of that money. It’ll be going in entirety to the utility monster (bottom quintile)
danny_codesabout 4 hours ago
I don’t see the connection between the utility monster concept and poor people.

Also I’m confused, do you want a regressive tax system?

mtoner23about 3 hours ago
No. its going to old people and health care
username223about 4 hours ago
Those utility monsters contain about 9000 grams of protein apiece when fully grown! They're a bargain compared to your typical protein powder.
nimishabout 3 hours ago
I think a fun exercise would be for the Times to ask their own accountants how they classify their own engineering employees for the R&D tax credit.
judahabout 3 hours ago
This. How many of us in this thread wouldn't take advantage of legal loopholes to pay less in taxes? How many corporations are doing the same?

I'd guess nearly every citizen tries to pay the least amount in taxes they possibly can.

The NYT article strikes me as disguised envy: "they make more money than us, so let's demonize them for doing something we all do: minimizing our tax burden."

hydrogen7800about 3 hours ago
>How many of us in this thread wouldn't take advantage of legal loopholes to pay less in taxes? How many corporations are doing the same?

How many of us in this thread can afford lobbyists to bribe lawmakers to change the law to benefit ourselves?

logicchainsabout 3 hours ago
It's not envy; the legacy media have a hate boner for social media because social media destroyed their monopoly on new information transmission and damaged their bottom line. I.e. an extreme conflict of interest.
exabrialabout 3 hours ago
When people are evading taxes, we need to blame the taxes, not the people.

We pay an enormous amount of dumb taxes that are simply funneled into

* government "Contractors". Aka the 1%, or the people that are golf buddies with your legistators

* wars. Which ultimately ends up in #1's pocket.

devindotcomabout 2 hours ago
we must punish the taxes

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