Who gets all that cash, and what do they do with it?

150 points•thelastgallon•2 days ago•149 comments•

149 comments

ggm1 day ago
To the extent my superannuation fund (401k, ROTH, IRA, hard to know what people call this in other economies) is invested in oil, it goes to .. me.

Super funds in Australia, Canada, the US, are now a massive component of capital investment both in the public market and in private equity. Australia's GDP is 2.5T and the super funds are up to 4T or 5T. Thats $trillion. The super funds are bigger than the GDP of the economy they reside in!

Some funds are just venal machines in the for profit sector. Some are run by boards aligned to union sectors, I am in the tertiary education union backed fund in Australia and it's been in the top 5 performing funds for my entire working lifetime, and given me a comfortable retirement. Most of the injection of funds was from me: I paid between 9 and 12% and on occasion up to 15% of my income into this fund over a 35 year working lifetime. Its accrual is all down to my fund manager, and if they invested in oil and have secured a windfall, at the cost of the future climate risk, thats on me, albiet indirectly. 35 years at the 150+ year 6-7% return in the market, (some say this trend is even older) is several doublings over my working lifetime. Those doublings were driven in .. the market.

Me here, is 75% or more of Australia. It's not some amorphous unknown nasty corporate investor in a sharp suit, its ordinary people. Oh, the article even points out that they pay out on insurance and capital costs rebuilding the exploded ships and production facilities. Guess who makes money? Thats right, the superannuation funds invested in the re-insurance market (Warren Buffett's favourite!) or in construction companies, public or private. So.. thats me again.

The money comes to us. Some of us may be in Saud. Sure. The Saudi state pays a huge stipend to its citizens. Some of us may be in Norway. That national investment fund is amazing. Why do you think Norway is now almost completely cut over to private EV drivers?

I'd love to ideate the hateful oil companies as the victors here but the thing is, they don't simply act like Smaug and sit on a pile of gold coins. Thats not held to be useful by them and their peers. They do shave off FAR TOO MUCH to swan about in those aforementioned sharp suits, but enough of the fat trickles into my hands, to keep me in the manner to which I am accustomed, as a retiree.

I'm as complicit, and so are "you" for many people reading this.

fooker1 day ago
> The super funds are bigger than the GDP of the economy they reside in!

You are comparing the absolute value of something versus yearly performance.

Market cap vs revenue.

shooabout 24 hours ago
I agree - they're measuring completely different properties of different populations of things, over completely different time horizons. Comparing them doesn't seem very useful.

Market caps are roughly expected future earnings, discounted back to give some net present value. They're expectations about the profitability of businesses, with expected profits accumulated over forecasts decades into the future. Market caps ignore privately held businesses, small businesses, state owned businesses & economic activity, economic output that might be happening at a household level, etc.

GDP is some peculiar measure of a country's economic output, over one year. It doesn't care if the economic activity is profitable or not & it doesn't care if the surplus of the economic activity is extracted by public companies or not. It's not forward-looking & based on expectations.

all that said, ggm has a fair point that individual investors & retirees with share portfolios directly benefit from the profits of companies whose economic activities may not be particularly pro-social & beneficial to the world. it's similar for climate change -- easy to point the finger at the energy producer, the big dirty brown coal plant. harder to point the finger at the demand side of the same equation - much of which is household demand. but both the individual end consumer households and the energy producer & everyone else involved in the value chain benefit out of the trade, even if the trade is net-negative for the world if we were to properly account for the externalities (e.g. polluting the atmosphere with CO_2 pushes the costs to everyone on the planet, current & future generations, not just the folks benefiting from the trade).

ggmabout 23 hours ago
True and fair. I committed a dimension sin.
ericdabout 22 hours ago
Yes, but I think with bafflingly huge numbers, it's a useful reference point. ~the value of all the stuff and services made in Australia for the year!
nayukiabout 9 hours ago
> my superannuation fund (401k, ROTH, IRA, hard to know what people call this in other economies)

In Canada, the comparable funds are: Canada Pension Plan (CPP, mandatory contribution for all employees), employer-managed pensions (not all companies have one; policies vary such as defined benefit vs. defined contribution), personal RRSP (you make the contribution and you select the investments).

I guess the comparable funds in the USA are: Social Security (mandatory contribution for all employees), employer-managed pensions (not all companies have one; policies vary such as DB vs. DC), personal IRA such as traditional/Roth.

supertropeabout 23 hours ago
In the book Catch-22 character Milo Minderbender helps the enemy conduct an aerial attack on his own base. He successfully defends his actions by pointing out how profitable his syndicate is. “Everyone gets a share.”
eruabout 22 hours ago
> It's not some amorphous unknown nasty corporate investor in a sharp suit, its ordinary people.

That 'nasty' guy usually serves investors, instead of investing his own money. For all he cares, these investors might be widows and orphans.

Btw, Singapore's sovereign wealth funds are also big players in basically the same space. Their revenue contribution to the national budget is bigger than any single tax we levy.

WalterBrightabout 19 hours ago
> they don't simply act like Smaug and sit on a pile of gold coins

That's because a pile of gold coins does not make money. One makes money by investing the coins, not investing in coins.

I always thought Smaug's hoard (as depicted in Jackson's movie) was beyond ridiculous. If it was unleashed on the economy, the price of gold would drop to the point you could pave the roads with it and make sewer pipes out of it.

b112about 16 hours ago
Middle Earth was supposed to be huge, massive, so I wonder if spread evenly that would be so. And I wonder, comparatively, how that hoard would look compared to 10 year's output of any Dwarf gold mine.

Maybe gold was already cheap. Maybe a gold coin was as silver to you and I.

I think I'll have Claude do a deep dive and research into this report, then release a paper on it.

(This goes under the theory of 'the more capacity you have, the more capacity is used' concept, and so, within a few years, we'll have 100 page reports on musings like this, instead of a two or three line post)

Razenganabout 19 hours ago
Thankfully they invented another war soon after to ""iNvEsT"" all that good!
kleiba2about 18 hours ago
Spoiler alert: "But ultimately, the bulk of the money heads in the direction of the source of the oil itself – the oil companies. [...] The money largely goes to company owners – meaning shareholders"
kakacikabout 16 hours ago
Thats why OPEC exists, no? To manipulate markets for biggest possible profit for oil owners. They are not even hiding it in any way. While everybody else is on the paying side.
pjc50about 16 hours ago
OPEC are a bit of a dead letter. Two of the key members (Iran and Saudi) are at war with each other!

If anything prices are being kept artificially _low_ by the US withdrawing from the strategic petroleum reserve, and similar (unquantified) actions being taken by the Chinese government. We'll have to see how the situation changes after the US midterms.

alt227about 12 hours ago
...and investors. Remember that many investment funds around the world will also be benefitting from this, meaning pensions, investment savings accounts etc
rossjudsonabout 22 hours ago
Does this mean the industry is now able to clean up the underfunded environmental disasters they created in the Gulf of Mexico?

Oh, right.

DivingForGoldabout 23 hours ago
When oil prices spike, producers may choose to be even more benevolent (bribes / paybacks) to politicians / administration who created the means which caused the price hike.
kleiba2about 18 hours ago
Can anyone explain how to read that first graph? Like, there's a line for demand, say, but given the axes labels, it seems to say "for greater demand, the price goes down", so the exact opposite of what basic price theory predicts.

Same for the supply lines, just the other way around.

Also, the use of straight lines indicates a linear relationship. Is that really the case in practice?

francisofasciiabout 13 hours ago
> "for greater demand, the price goes down"

If demand were to be greater, the entire demand line shifts to the right. But demand is generally stable because oil is a neccessity in the short term. This demand line is near vertical which means people/companies will buy a little less when the price spikes, but not drasticly less. People still need to drive to work, heat homes, etc.

317070about 18 hours ago
it's the other way around. For there to be a demand for large quantities, the price must be low. The graph seems correct.
kleiba2about 17 hours ago
So you're reading it as a "prerequisite chart"? That seems odd because the common way to read graphs is that what's reported on the y-axis is a function of the values of the x-axis.

I find it also hard to read it that way when I look at that "Price in February -> Price in April" annotation: if those two points on the y-axis mark points in time, then so do the correlating points on the x-axis. I can only read that as "from February to April, the demand went up while the prices went down".

NooneAtAll3about 17 hours ago
it's classic "economists don't know what they're doing" case - traditionally they switch labels, with input variable on the y axis

why? no idea

kleiba2about 17 hours ago
Maybe because "economists don't know what they're doing"?

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