168 points•yusufaytas•5 days ago•55 comments•

55 comments

culi2 days ago
More evidence for David Graeber and David Wengrow's reading of the site.

Between Göbekli Tepe, Poverty Point, Cahokia, and other sites we have pretty good evidence of complex urban societies that did not rely on agriculture. And even in these few sites we have abundant evidence of diversity of social structures from radically egalitarian to hierarchical

The linear narrative of the evolution of human societies is dead

lumost2 days ago
Out of curiosity couldn’t this also mean that we are missing the agriculture? Or that the practices they used were very different from today.
avadodin2 days ago
I don't think so.

We have a good idea of when and where the crops were domesticated.

10kya on was a time of climate change. It is plausible that they were just so blessed in terms of food that they could waste their time creating new problems for themselves.

> Grg in all his evil has amassed 8000 wild wheat berries but I myself have only gathered 400. Is this fair? How about everyone provides 100 berries to the one that goes to beat him in the head for the common good?

onlyrealcuzzo2 days ago
At a large enough scale and a short enough time horizon, you're not going to miss it.

I don't think anyone is saying they FOR SURE didn't cultivate a couple flowers and magic mushrooms.

If they were an agricultural society resembling anything like the ones we see later, there are several things you'd expect to find.

empath751 day ago
There was a long period of time that people engaged in _accidental_ agriculture, where they collected seeds and foods to eat and sort of accidentally spread them around along migration pathways, so they probably had "fields" of edible plants around to some extent, but they probably wouldn't show up in the archeology.
throwaway274482 days ago
"The Dawn of Everything"'s interpretation of this is that we only relied on (sedentary) agriculture when we were forced to because of climate change, overpopulation, or threat of violence from other local peoples, so there are several thousand years between evidence of capability and necessity.
ggm2 days ago
> More evidence for David Graeber

What little I know of the disputes around Graeber suggest this is not going to end his isolation in the wider community of archeologists, economists, sociologists.

culi1 day ago
Well other than being dead, I'm not sure what you mean. Graeber is the anthropologist (and the guy who organized Occupy). Wengrow is the archeologist.

My take on the different fields:

- anthropology: a central figure. Like all central figures, he can be polarizing

- archeology: a big collaborator but has never pretended to be an archeologist

- economics: celebrated by behavioral economists, rejected by neoclassical ones

- sociology: pretty widely celebrated and cited

applicative1 day ago
He's been dead for years now.
namenotrequired2 days ago
I don’t disagree with your overall point but I’m confused what the evidence is in this case, could you explain?
protocolture2 days ago
>The linear narrative of the evolution of human societies is dead

This is I guess one of the bigger problems with Graeber, like when he was attacking Silicon Valley he demonstrated he had absolutely no idea what he was arguing against.

Likewise, armchair reading of human social development has never appeared to be linear to me. Palace Economy > Crash > Temple Economy > Crash seems pretty damn standard. I was watching an old documentary on the socioeconomic development of Egypt and it looks like they discovered and rediscovered several important social and economic reforms, that were then lost and rediscovered by themselves and other societies over and over again.

The question is, was Graeber an idiot and just didn't know what he was talking about or was Graeber just another grifter like Hancock who relies on misrepresenting other peoples arguments for financial gain.

6P58r3MXJSLi2 days ago
"linear" here means that the usual narrative is

hunter-gatherers → agriculture → permanent settlements → cities → states → civilization

the usual reasoning is

agriculture → surplus → settlement → religion/monumental architecture

it's not at all about civilizations and/or empires collapsing and being reborn in different shapes or social and economic reforms being rediscovered, that already implies some highly sofisticated form of society, while places like Göbekli Tepe predates the pyramids by 5.000 years

The story of that place has changed so much. Almost everything that was claimed first is now 180° different. Such is progress, but maybe they shouldn't tell so many stories when they have incomplete data.
itopaloglu832 days ago
Some people were quick to jump on the gun and call it a human sacrifice site, I’m glad that they’re all proven wrong now.
tastyfreeze2 days ago
The phrase is "jump the gun" or "jumped the gun" as in a fault start in a race started with a gun.
iphonecorridor2 days ago
The phrase is “false start.”
lukan2 days ago
"I’m glad that they’re all proven wrong now."

Where exactly did you see that proof?

"The new study points to a different process for much of the assemblage." "The match offers an explanation for why the fragments appear so widely scattered."

This is the language in use here. We are talking about bones that were buried 12 000 years ago, got chewed partially by rodents, crushed by earth pressure and moved around with the soil. So no indication that there was human sacrifice, but also no definite proof otherwise.

hinkley2 days ago
I always thought that 'ceremonial room' looked more like a sauna than a sacrificial pit. It reminded me of the Roman ruins at Bath more than anything else.
mihaic1 day ago
It's not really clear to me what's so (figuratively) groundbreaking about this, especially given that Catalhuyuk already shows similar care for the dead not much later.
MadrasTh0rn2 days ago
Was subfloor burial common in Neolithic?
BirAdam1 day ago
Currently, while not a majority of cultures buried people under their homes, it was common enough.

Çatalhöyük

Non-royal Sumer and Babylon

Poorer Mayans (from what can be found, there's much of the ancient Maya unexplored)

The LoWiili culture and some other West African cultures

The Tikopia until the arrival of Christianity

Some neolithic sites in Europe, but not believed to have been too common there

redhed1 day ago
Also in Neolithic Yellow River it was pretty common to bury infants in jars/pots underneath the floor from what I remember.
treis2 days ago
Seems like you'd quickly run out of floor and/or end up with a lot of bodies in one place. And are you chipping up your plaster floor every time someone dies? I'm pretty skeptical that this makes sense as a practice. Seems far more likely that a building was built over a forgotten grave.
AlotOfReading2 days ago
We know of many, many cultures that have buried remains under house floors as ritual practice. Sometimes our "common sense" isn't a reliable guide to distant cultures.
sophacles1 day ago
The floor of most houses for most of history was made of dirt.
throwaway274482 days ago
Estimating "common" is quite difficult, but given that there are pre-colonial aboriginal australian burial sites, we can estimate that it either can be traced to Africa or is sufficiently common to not be surprising. There is even evidence (not proof) of neanderthal burial rituals, fwiw.
gradus_ad2 days ago
I suspect it has to do with our advanced capacity for emotion. The death of a loved one is so difficult to bear, having their body sitting out in the open in a rotting state would be horrific. Burying serves the dual purpose of hiding their decomposition and keeping them close to the community.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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