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Between Göbekli Tepe, Poverty Point, Cahokia, and other sites we have pretty good evidence of complex urban societies that did not rely on agriculture. And even in these few sites we have abundant evidence of diversity of social structures from radically egalitarian to hierarchical
The linear narrative of the evolution of human societies is dead
We have a good idea of when and where the crops were domesticated.
10kya on was a time of climate change. It is plausible that they were just so blessed in terms of food that they could waste their time creating new problems for themselves.
> Grg in all his evil has amassed 8000 wild wheat berries but I myself have only gathered 400. Is this fair? How about everyone provides 100 berries to the one that goes to beat him in the head for the common good?
I don't think anyone is saying they FOR SURE didn't cultivate a couple flowers and magic mushrooms.
If they were an agricultural society resembling anything like the ones we see later, there are several things you'd expect to find.
What little I know of the disputes around Graeber suggest this is not going to end his isolation in the wider community of archeologists, economists, sociologists.
My take on the different fields:
- anthropology: a central figure. Like all central figures, he can be polarizing
- archeology: a big collaborator but has never pretended to be an archeologist
- economics: celebrated by behavioral economists, rejected by neoclassical ones
- sociology: pretty widely celebrated and cited
This is I guess one of the bigger problems with Graeber, like when he was attacking Silicon Valley he demonstrated he had absolutely no idea what he was arguing against.
Likewise, armchair reading of human social development has never appeared to be linear to me. Palace Economy > Crash > Temple Economy > Crash seems pretty damn standard. I was watching an old documentary on the socioeconomic development of Egypt and it looks like they discovered and rediscovered several important social and economic reforms, that were then lost and rediscovered by themselves and other societies over and over again.
The question is, was Graeber an idiot and just didn't know what he was talking about or was Graeber just another grifter like Hancock who relies on misrepresenting other peoples arguments for financial gain.
hunter-gatherers → agriculture → permanent settlements → cities → states → civilization
the usual reasoning is
agriculture → surplus → settlement → religion/monumental architecture
it's not at all about civilizations and/or empires collapsing and being reborn in different shapes or social and economic reforms being rediscovered, that already implies some highly sofisticated form of society, while places like Göbekli Tepe predates the pyramids by 5.000 years
Where exactly did you see that proof?
"The new study points to a different process for much of the assemblage." "The match offers an explanation for why the fragments appear so widely scattered."
This is the language in use here. We are talking about bones that were buried 12 000 years ago, got chewed partially by rodents, crushed by earth pressure and moved around with the soil. So no indication that there was human sacrifice, but also no definite proof otherwise.
Çatalhöyük
Non-royal Sumer and Babylon
Poorer Mayans (from what can be found, there's much of the ancient Maya unexplored)
The LoWiili culture and some other West African cultures
The Tikopia until the arrival of Christianity
Some neolithic sites in Europe, but not believed to have been too common there
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