393 points•ksec•8 days ago•104 comments•

104 comments

bluebxrry8 days ago
I loved Grammarly. But it has changed post LLM boom. The underlying concept was awesome as they take grammatical rules from a book of english grammar rules into a linter. Then it let you select the tone and adjusted some for marketing/engagement so it sounds good on Twitter. I have severe dyslexia and struggled with tone.

Lately, like following ChatGPT 3.5 release era, I had found Grammarly now replacing entire sentences with LLM replacement which are random and inject bias to being near useless. It did this some before. The problem is I can't even tell if it's defensible from a grammatical point when it uses an LLM to do this. At some point Grammarly reached too far in the cookie jar and I no longer trusted that someone who read the Grammar rule book verified any part of the elaborate suggestions.

I haven't logged in for months. I guess I was no longer learning from it. I need to take a closer look but sys admin outrage from pushy sales people doesn't bode well in my mind.

MacNCheese237 days ago
The same fate hit deepl. What most english users don't know is that translation from english to another language was always at best - horrible and not usable without much manual effort. The same goes the other way around when you are writing technical documents.

Deepl however - 7-8 or more years ago was bright star - i do not say this lightly but their translation (i can only vouch for german<->english) was out of this world in comparison to everything else like google translate, yahoo or whatever.

It was basically so good - i just kept writing in english even though its not my first language but its easier for technical documentation and i use it to translate back to german instead of doing it the other way around.

But then, when the first mass hysteria of chatgpt 1 etc hits - it good worse fast - nowadays - it can not do any good translation service at all - it is far worse than what the competition offered 7-8 years ago! It makes no sense a lot of times.

paimapi7 days ago
Looks like approx 7 years ago was DeepL's first Series A - https://tracxn.com/d/companies/deepl/__mTFDDSjOlFbUE5DY_w1NW... - they got funding from btov and Benchmark

Benchmark is very AI-pilled: https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/ai-is-replacing-j... and is very bullish on it, too: https://gtmnow.com/benchmark-ai-startup-investing-chetan-put...

it also looks like DeepL went from using a CNN engine to an LLM in 2024 (coinciding with its $2 billion valuation and Series C) which is likely why it seems to hallucinate a lot more now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepL_Translator#Translation_m...

beej718 days ago
I suspect Google did the same thing with docs. The last time I tried it, about 10% of the suggestions were simply incorrect.

I need to find an old school grammar checker that works on the command line with markdown.

stuxnet798 days ago
> I need to find an old school grammar checker that works on the command line with markdown.

You might be interested in Val - https://docs.vale.sh/

AbstractH247 days ago
What is Grammarly anymore, even? Is it Superhuman? Is it Fathom? And what are either of those even?

Even before all that, I switched to Quillbot because Grammarly would always mess up the formatting in my emails in gmail (but only when you viewed it from mobile). Quillbot isn't totally better than that, but at least its cheaper.

FinnLobsien8 days ago
I think Grammarly is quite obviously in trouble since LLMs went so mainstream. And while I think AI-powered replacements are a great threat, I reckon an even bigger one is the decline of writing itself.

If Gmail suggests the whole email (and whatever model it's using has baked in whatever suggestions Grammarly would've had), nobody needs feedback on an email they didn't even write?

Thom25038 days ago
ProllyInfamous7 days ago
I began noticing (right before their acceptance of AI, c2024) that grammarly (and translation sites) were offering (what seemed like at the time) "lifetime subscriptions to soon-to-be obsolete tech" – the writing was already so-obviously written upon walls that ChatGPT was an industry re-writer.
matt-attack7 days ago
Don’t forget that email won’t actually be read on the receiving side either. The recipient will just ask their LLM to summarize it in a few bullets.
RobRivera7 days ago
Yea, I routinely receive giant tomes of meeting minutes littered with inaccuracies, and frankly, I find it unprofessional
malfist8 days ago
But think of how productive you'll be when everyone slops you emails and then you have an agent slop you a summary of all the slops you got slopped into your slop box!
meerita8 days ago
Grammarly was a great idea in the pre-AI era. Now I bet they're losing a lot with so many AI solutions that are better integrated across every ecosystem.

Some people will argue that Grammarly still has a better suggestion system, but models have become increasingly good at writing. I think this product and its revenue model will become obsolete pretty soon.

rossy8 days ago
> but models have become increasingly good at writing.

That's not the impression I have. HN has almost daily articles bemoaning the use of AI to enhance or pad-out human-to-human communication and the comments almost universally agree that the output is bad, using AI to communicate is rude, and they'd rather read the human-written prompt than the AI-"enhanced" version.

I'm not aware of any model that has solved the AI writing problem. Fable 5.1 and Opus 5.5 improve on Fable 5 and Opus 5, but neither are good. They all seem to overuse jargon, misuse literary devices and write ill-fitting metaphor. They all produce prose that is dense and hard to read, but sparse on actual information. Even non-techy people can identify AI writing.

em-bee8 days ago
HN readers are not average people. elsewhere i see people using AI to write without any blowback. maybe they don't want to ruffle feathers, but they are engaging, whereas i prefer to just skip over AI generated posts.
meerita8 days ago
If you build a nice writing guideline, you can impersonate Mark Twain if you want with any model.
mhitza8 days ago
They are losing because they embraced AI at the detriment of what they where doing well.

It was a good tool, that worked, paid for it for a couple of months and then they decided to go with AI and using my writing for training.

LiamPowell8 days ago
I suspect they're also losing a lot of university subscriptions after they started advertising how they offer a service to make LLM-written text look human-written, if I recall correctly they even explicitly advertised that you could use it to cheat. I don't know what they were thinking with that marketing campaign given that universities are probably one of their biggest market segments.
mdp20218 days ago
> pre-AI era

That is a very bad shortening for "pre-laymen-take-of-AI". Let us try to keep language clean at least here.

If the product in question replaces a tutor, it is AI ("simulation of intelligence"). We cannot restrict the term "AI" to "giving a broader appearance of intelligence with less trust in the results". Either this is still the "AI era" (post cybernetics, post Dartmouth), or we are not there yet.

officeplant8 days ago
pre-slop era might be a fitting term
watwut7 days ago
Grammarlynis using AI.

Models are not good at writing. Like, they are just not producing good writings. They produce differently bad writing.

pjmlp8 days ago
For those in Europe, this kind of behaviour usually is taken care by consumer protection agencies, fill in a complaint /report them, in you jurisdiction.
edwcross8 days ago
Unless you're in country A and ordered from country B (both in Europe), in which case the consumer protection agency from country A may just tell you "well they're not in our country so we can't do much, try contacting the European consumer agency, which after spending 30 minutes finding their form, and checking that you do qualify (which you won't, for some stupid reason like "did you try calling them nicely and sending a letter and waiting for 30 days?"), they will just say "ok cool we sent them an e-mail, we'll tell you how all of this will work out".

Or maybe I'm just in a bad European country who pulls this kind of demotivating stints every time I have this kind of problem.

pjmlp8 days ago
Sure, I don't say it is easy, it is also a matter of perseverance, in most cases.
Der_Einzige8 days ago
Damn it feels good to be an American eagle sounds
type08 days ago
I tried to report Linkedin for their practices and it was like spitting at the sky trying to hit God
alexaholic8 days ago
Consumer protection applies to individual consumers, not businesses. OP looks like a business.
alibarber8 days ago
Yes - unfortunately this looks to be completely irrelevant to consumer protection.

"A contractor of my employer asked me to contact another member of my organisation to persuade them to do something commercially advantageous for them" - at no point is anyone here a consumer.

Business emails are subject to fairly different rules by the looks of it: https://tietosuoja.fi/en/faq-direct-marketing ("Can a person working in a company be sent direct electronic marketing") - it appears there's a fair bit of an exception that doesn't require consent.

bsoqk8 days ago
What are you going to report? There’s nothing illegal going on here.
pjmlp8 days ago
Bad business practices, this sometimes also ends up in the agency reaching out to the related companies.

Or having their names listed in industry reports, which their marketing departments usually don't like.

RobotToaster8 days ago
In the UK that would be trading standards, and unless it's a local shop selling un-taxed cigarettes they're useless.
thway152690378 days ago
Grammarly is a keylogger and an asset of a spying agency[1]. No one should use them either willingly or unwillingly.

[1] almost every cloud solution that exfiltrates your data to the cloud is, but that is besides the point

JohnKemeny8 days ago
You can use Grammarly via an API, or simply submit text in a web interface.

It's a keylogger in the same way Vim is a keylogger.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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