Intentional writing will likely become more valuable.

1070 points•mooreds•9 days ago•459 comments•

459 comments

hatthew9 days ago
As I have been saying for years:

Writing is fundamentally the transfer of information from your brain to my brain. If you have 1000 bits of semantic information you want to transfer, you can't give 300 bits of semantic information to an LLM and have it fill in the remaining 700, because it doesn't know what those 700 bits are. If it's able to guess those 700 bits correctly, then they aren't true semantic information, and you really only have 300 bits you want to transfer. You might as well transfer those bits to me directly, rather than having the LLM add on an extra superfluous 700 bits that I then have to filter out.

beloch9 days ago
For a long time after the internet arrived on the scene, a lot of online news stories would reference websites, papers, polls, etc. without linking to them. There are still news sources doing this today. Sometimes such articles interpret or place context around their hidden references, but a lot of the time they just summarize.

Giving someone the text output of a LLM is very similar to publishing a summary without links to the referenced material. When you were querying your LLM, you could have asked specific questions or asked for a custom focus or point of view. Your intended audience might have questions or different concerns, but they're unable to interact with your LLM. What you have delivered is static and unresponsive. It has all the disadvantages of being machine output without the advantage of being interactive, the way your LLM was for you.

It may have to wait until compute is cheap enough that tokens are essentially free, but we need a system to pass "hyperlinks" to LLM's primed with context, ready to be interactively queried on a chosen context. It's being overly generous to assume that people are putting even 300 bits into a LLM for every 1000 bits of regurgitated writing they try to pass off as their own. When people post LLM output as if it were their own, I have no choice but to assume they had zero knowledge of the subject, but this query taught them what they wanted to learn, and now they're sharing that. That's fine, but please pass an interactive LLM link rather than static text.

Once we have "hyperlinks" for LLM sessions, perhaps we can share LLM output a little more usefully and honestly.

whycome9 days ago
I've seen professional journal pieces refer to science journal articles only to go and read the original article and find that it draws a different conclusion than what is implied by the journalist.
theptip9 days ago
This sounds a lot like knowledge graphs. Ideally, we can hyperlink to not only articles but concepts, facts, etc.

I’m a big fan of this approach.

SoftTalker9 days ago
Link rot has accelerated in the past decade. Links are great, when they work. If they are a few years old, they often don't. You certainly can't count on it. If you're referencing a paper or an article, it's probably better to cite the title of the article, the name of the journal or magazine or newspaper it was published in, the author, and the date. Then someone might have a chance of finding it again.
CM309 days ago
Not just news stories. This is a huge problem with social media and forums in general too. Lots of people making bold claims about random things, lots of stories they say are based on a third party source, but very few actual links to said sources in question.

I still remember a recent example where one of those trivia accounts on Twitter posted an interesting story about some guy whose life completely changed after an accident, but neither linked to a source or named the person in question.

The only way I was able to verify it was true was through someone in the comments asking the platform's AI chatbot, and the chatbot providing context that I could research and verify...

ageitgey9 days ago
> For a long time after the internet arrived on the scene, a lot of online news stories would reference websites, papers, polls, etc. without linking to them. There are still news sources doing this today.

I agree, this drives me crazy. Ironically, one of my favorite uses for Claude is to ask, "What study is this news article talking about?"

It's pretty good at digging up the source and related sources. And most of the time, if you read the source, the article is nonsense and gets everything wrong.

TheOtherHobbes9 days ago
It isn't the transfer of information at all. What's actually happening is you're prompting experiences in a human instead of an AI using text.

Communication only works if you have multiple levels of representation and abstraction, including but not limited to - letter shapes, grammatical structures, style and register, stylometry, and subtext.

All of that is learned, and writers usually assume they can rely on that learning as the context for the text.

So you don't write to 'transfer information' like a network cable, you write to trigger experiences in the human version of latent space.

Factual information is one kind of experience. But even when that's the goal, there are always layers of implied relationship, social register, role, status, and other implications in everything that's written.

In normal communications the context - business emails, personal messages, mainstream journalism, fiction, and the rest - defines what acceptable language looks like.

The content fits inside that. But it has to fit the context, otherwise it lands in a semantic and psychological uncanny valley - like sending LinkedIn speak to a spouse on a wedding anniversary.

The real problem with LLM writing is that it's good at the technical layer - the grammar and spelling - and has some insights into the rest.

But the default content style is marketing and ad speak. And recently it's developed a weird and unique hybrid style which applies marketing fluff and pretension to technical content like code comments.

So you get one register instead of all of them. It can attempt others, but it's still too limited to generate them fluently. Sometimes the results are outstanding, but often it defaults to mechanical clichés.

So that's why it sucks and sounds so hollow.

Can it be fixed? Yes, but it's very hard work, most people don't have the skills, and it takes time - often too much time to be worth the effort.

hatthew9 days ago
I'm definitely being slightly too emphatic when I say it's "fundamentally the transfer of information", but I don't think that nuance is important.

When LLMs eventually get good at writing in the correct style for a given context, I'll admit that they have value in that way. But they aren't good at that yet. And even when they do get that good, I'll still dislike it for reasons that are more emotional than rational.

intrasight9 days ago
Anyone know of any good research articles on the Information-theoretical aspects of this? I find it a compelling topic.
devmor8 days ago
While I agree with some of what you've said and the conclusion you've arrived at, in the end, I think you've missed part of the picture here with regard to "prompting experiences".

> Communication only works if you have multiple levels of representation and abstraction, including but not limited to - letter shapes, grammatical structures, style and register, stylometry

These are methods of encoding, there's no reason all of these can't be represented in an LLM from a technical point of view.

> and subtext.

This is the other half of the equation to me. Humans communicate by relating shared experiences, an LLM cannot have shared experiences. While it might be able to encode subtext that has been specifically called out and explained, it will never be able to encode the breadth of human subtext, especially that which is reliant on emotion.

I don't believe it is possible to change this until the point mankind truly develops a "wetware interface" to the digital world (and I personally don't want such a thing to exist).

Brian_K_White9 days ago
That "marketing style" isn't a style, it's the lack of content itself. You just restated their original point despite trying to object to it, because it was correct and there is no way around that.
whycome9 days ago
What already happens: - People give an LLM a bulleted list of points that they want expanded into a professional sounding document. - The receiver doesn't wanna read all that. They put the full document into an LLM and ask it to summarize it into succinct bullet points.
steveBK1239 days ago
We've invented the opposite of lossless compression
hatthew9 days ago
I first noticed this a year ago when I read a gmail AI summary, then glanced at the main text and saw it was AI generated. I feel like there's good fodder in there for a dystopian sci-fi story about a future where nobody communicates directly with one another, it's all AIs translating, but the AIs slowly start to drift.
asp_hornet9 days ago
I’ve been saying the same thing. I’m not saying all, but a significant amount of comms could be bullet points to the benefit of both sender and receiver.
japanuspus8 days ago
This is exactly what I want: To communicate with me, have your LLM expand your message to include relevant parts of _your_ context, then I will have my LLM summarize it as briefly as possible with respect to _my_ context.
kbenson9 days ago
It's worse than that. If it takes others longer for others to consume and understand what you're producing than it does for you to produce it, you'll never be able to communicate with someone efficiently. Communication breaks down at a fundamental level if if you can't keep up with the other side if outputting and they won't slow to allow you do do so.

I see this all the time now with LLM generated output. It's easy to have an LLM generate a chunk of content that can be dropped into a chat or comment, and when it took you 20 seconds to have something written up based on the shared understanding you and an LLM have about the context of the situation, but it takes other people 3-5 minutes to read and understand that content, that fundamentally doesn't scale. It's bad enough when one or two people are doing it, but if the whole team is doing it, the only way to keep up with the stream of information is to also consume it through an LLM. At that point you're likely to be missing much of the nuance, and the amount of errors will explode.

This can be alleviated by people reviewing the output of an LLM and making sure it both includes fundamental information that might be assumed by context and reducing it to the parts that are essential for the new context it's in. This takes time, but is extremely important.

Having an LLM write gobs of text to send to other people instead of doing it yourself is the equivalent of a low yield cognitive zip-bomb. Don't do it.

TwelveEyes9 days ago
I don’t quite think this tracks. Perhaps you want to communicate 1000 bits that are well known and can be referenced with a 300 bit key. Then the LLM can easily retrieve the remaining information. It’s like sending someone a link to the Wikipedia page instead of explaining something yourself.

No, I don’t want to read LLM writing because it is BAD at it. It doesn’t really understand how humans think (because it thinks differently), and doesn’t seem to understand core principles very well (presumably due to the lack of world model), so it can’t write something humans enjoy yet.

hatthew9 days ago
That's kind of my point. If the 1000 bits are well known, then their inclusion isn't new semantic information. By pasting an LLM's output, you're deciding for your reader that they don't already know that information, and deciding that your LLM prompt is better than whatever they would to to obtain that information if they lack it. IMO, it's much better to give your readers the 300-bit key, and let them decide for themselves if they want/need to get more information, and if so, how.
zmmmmm9 days ago
It's funny, i push back on pull requests because there is too much description now - a 20 line change has pages and pages of generated description, rationalisation for why it is safe, defense of each design decision, analysis of risks and side effects. People are indignant, you're rejecting my change because there is too much documentation? And my response is, I don't have time to read it and you put me in the position where I can't afford not to - because approving the PR implies I did and accepted it. The investment to read all that for the value of a code change that I'm one prompt away from doing myself if I cared is just not high enough. So it's rejected.
ramshanker9 days ago
You might be surprised how many organisations/ teams now don’t even review pull requests. Claude does coding, Codex do code review, and if developer did 5 round of this before pull request, we could very well just let CI merge.
zmmmmm9 days ago
I'm very curious how this goes long term. I guess we will find out.

My instinct says that these systems will expand their complexity to fully fit the cognitive budget of the agents that coded them and then atrophy the same way human-built systems do at lower cognitive budget. Only this time, because of the larger up front budget, the complexity ceiling will be higher, and the potential depth of the problem may be much much larger. It may mostly manifest as increasing cost over time - the agents grind for longer and longer, iterating over and over to fix all the failing tests, and the breaking point will be where it never converges and you come back to millions of dollars in budget spent and still tests are failing and effective gridlock on system changes.

But this may be all my human-biased fantasy that justifies still taking a role in software development.

stakhanov8 days ago
IMO, PRs were never the right process to use in tightly-collaborating teams such as most companies. PRs got popular because orgs started using GitHub, and GitHub had made that workflow to fit the needs of open source (and modeled it after what open source was already doing in the days when patches got sent around via mailing lists).

I'm old enough to remember using CVS and then subversion in companies. People would commit straight to main (which was then called "trunk"), because making feature branches and merging them was cumbersome. And, on regular intervals, the person responsible for some corner of the codebase would do a show-and-tell presenting it to peers, but without the sharply defined boundaries of what the code looked like before vs. after some recent set of changes. People might remember some things from the previous show and tell or from first hand experience with that code, but that kind of memory is necessarily fuzzy, and diffs weren't an artefact that was typical to look at. So, these reviews didn't block people, and any comments that came from reviews defined a direction that things should go from here on out. If a corner of the codebase was deemed to be in a bad shape, the blame around that was equally fuzzy.

Gigachad9 days ago
Others are just implicitly doing this but pretending review still exists.

Everyone is fatigued by endless code review which you get no credit for and has become massively more of a burden.

All PRs are superficially fine now. There are no typos, there is unit test coverage, but there are deeper issues that require massive amounts of effort and time to spot.

fantasizr9 days ago
a whole organization just pressing "OK" intermittently
brailsafe9 days ago
and this is such a liability imo. I recently got fired for what I think was apparently merging a change to Kubeconfig that both the CTO and DevOps person approved. I made as damn sure as I could that the proposed change was good, but I needed their eyes on it and they clearly weren't, possibly be cause every other repo had a review bot and no special automatic deployment automations. The DevOps person literally commented and said "It's good to merge", who to trust
misiti37809 days ago
I changed the readme in my repo to say you have to send me a personal email if you want me to merge.

https://github.com/josephmisiti/awesome-machine-learning

It's helped a lot. Agents haven't figured out how to do that yet, or sendgrid, sns, etc are doing the hard work for me.

Sharlin9 days ago
Maximizing the amount of documentation was never the goal, and people who assume that have entirely misunderstood what the point of documentation is.
devilsdata9 days ago
I'm naturally verbose due to my ADHD. I'm trying to learn to be more succinct.

In the meantime, for business communication, I use AI to shorten my text, to make it more concise.

DrewADesign9 days ago
I also have ADHD-driven blah blah blah. I find achieving brevity laborious, but find LLM results to be unacceptable. A journalism class taught by a well-known professional food critic helped most, but consistently using the free “Hemingway App” editor was almost as beneficial. Blindly following every suggestion pares your writing down to a nub, but it’s great at highlighting sentences you need to rethink without blurring your voice and ideas with bland suggestions.
mentos9 days ago
Lately on my hobby projects I've been lazily committing work with the prompt 'add the relevant files to git and commit with a message that explains why' - only because I remember 15 years ago reading an HN comment from someone complaining that too many commit messages answer 'what' but not 'why' haha

So far I haven't had a reason to go back through commits to isolate any issues but if I do hoping the 'why' messages may come in handy for my LLM lol

blandcoffee9 days ago
I appreciate the direction of this article, and commend the author on publishing work, but the first sentence in the first paragraph is exactly what they lament.

> A pattern I see is that people use AI to build something new, then they use AI to retrospectively summarize what they have already built into a design document. Reading a document like this isn’t just difficult—it is punishing.

neynt9 days ago
To be quite generous, that could be tongue in cheek.
gavinsyancey9 days ago
There are other AI smells later in the article, and the author talks about using AI to help with writing...
hatthew9 days ago
That was my assumption. The alternative is that the author is a blatant hypocrite, which seems less likely given their blog's history.
Apocryphon9 days ago
That's a classic calling card of LLM prose but that doesn't mean they actually used an AI. Though sure, it would be nice if we gave this style a name and then abolished it.
linguae9 days ago
I call it the “it’s not delivery—it’s DiGiorno” construct. I generally tune out when I see this construct, which is so prevalent on LinkedIn these days, which is inundated with clichéd writing.
sippeangelo9 days ago
No, usually humans write more than just a short unsubstantiated punchline in their "it's not x, it's y's", unless they're trying to sell you something.
epihelix9 days ago
Well, not quite the classic calling card - LLMs generally use a contrast of opposites. (e.g. "it wasn't a bug -- it was a feature", although that predates LLMs :)

TFA's use is more common in "normal" language: "it's not just [minor], it's [major]". (But, as others have pointed out, it was probably deliberately parodic anyway.)

JimTheMan9 days ago
I believe that to be a very obvious joke. The kind that the british are fond of.
niccl9 days ago
FWIW Pangram [0] "We believe that this entire text is human-written."

I've only just discovered pangram, but I've seen it referred to a few times in HN recently wit nothing obviously pejorative about it. Take it with all required grains of salt, though

0: https://www.pangram.com/dashboard

breezybottom9 days ago
AI detectors are useless.
watwut9 days ago
The not this but that is bad when it is out of nowhere combination. In here, it has actual meaning.
earthnail9 days ago
I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. In general, I 100% agree, just send me the prompt; however sometimes I feel an LLM can help structure thoughts. It can be a good sparring partner. If you proofread your LLM content, re-prompt until it sounds right and no longer like AI content, and feel that it actually conveys the information incredibly well, then I'm happy.

One of the instructions I've hammered into Claude is "Write like a human. I don't want this to sound like AI content. Your standard style of writing would fail miserably if it was reviewed by an English teacher. I want you to write prose that is nice to read. For example, write full sentences instead of bullet points."

It works wonders. Suddenly, my plan documents are something I actually understand, and something I'd be happy to share as an RFC. They still need iterating every time before they're ready to share, but I no longer have "the honest truth is" and other BS in my output. It's so refreshing for my brain to be able to actually focus on the content.

I've noticed this with my partner, too. She used Claude to draft a strategy document and felt completely overwhelmed. A classic moment of "AI did all the thinking for me, but now I don't know what I'm presenting". Once I helped her prompt Claude into writing the strategy in proper English, she understood what the AI was proposing, rejected large parts of it, iterated several times and ended up with a draft document where she edited the finishing touches herself and felt that it was truly hers. The AI was still incredibly useful: it helped her with the blank slate problem, and tremendously sped up her workflow.

So yeah, if you proofread and iterate on your AI's output until you feel you'd be proud if you had written it yourself, I'm happy to read it, too.

winwang9 days ago
I'll be even more contrarian: I don't care if someone didn't write it as long as it's good (that's the major problem). I don't mind people using quotes when writing either. It's just that typically people (used to) curate their words before presenting them as writing. Although I'd prefer it if they also credited/explained what they used to write it in the case of heavy AI generation.
resonious9 days ago
This, really. If I am entertained and learning then I do not care where the content came from.

Of course Claudeish or GPTish ("unusually") will easily push me away. Just like any repetitive or obnoxious tendencies that might appear in human writing.

zahlman9 days ago
> One of the instructions I've hammered into Claude is "Write like a human. …" It works wonders.

If this actually works, it's absurd. The implication is that Anthropic could trivially make Claude sound less obnoxious, but chooses not to. I don't see a way this could be justified as a safety feature or anything, so.

visarga8 days ago
I tried a lot to get rid of Claude vibes and I failed. I made blacklists, I used prompt evolution to test against good human writing samples, even created a dynamic policy for dialogue, a cli tool used to steer agents dynamically by well chosen questions. The poor writing style made even models like Fable look worse than Sonnet 3.7 to me.
visarga8 days ago
> So yeah, if you proofread and iterate on your AI's output until you feel you'd be proud if you had written it yourself, I'm happy to read it, too.

I agree, using LLMs is disproportionately frowned upon, but what matters is if you invested your own attention in the process. I use LLMs a lot for sparing, usually ask it to assume some opposing persona or use web search, not relying on its defaults.

haolez8 days ago
Better metric: your LLM enhanced version cannot be larger than the prompt. Otherwise, you are just reducing your signal to noise ratio.
gfody9 days ago
> People who rarely produced original writing are suddenly producing

these posts are beginning to make me wince. ai is giving voice to a lot of folks we probably wouldn't even be hearing from otherwise - because not everyone does their thinking in articulate prose, and extracting their realizations as shareable language takes effort, or long, embarassing iterations with ai "workshopping" to get to something they can read back and go yes this is what I am trying to say.

now the sentiment is that whatever these people had to say they could have just come out and said it - and that would be more passionate and less disjointed - no, not necessarily, and the more it gets repeated the more it's sounding elite and pompous to me. for example this:

> I had someone write me a personal message about a sensitive topic that was clearly workshopped with AI in an effort to nuance the conversation and not offend me. But the message became impersonal, dispassionate, and disjointed. It had all of the parts, but it didn’t make sense as a whole. I wasn’t interested in reading it, or responding.

this reads as someone choosing to ignore a personal message about a sensitive topic - because of an assumption they made about their writing: that they workshopped it when they should not have - because whatever it was they were struggling to say they should have isntead trusted the author to be able to understand the precise meaning of their raw, inelegant thoughts no matter how embarrassed they might be to share them in that form. they're complaining about a message they probably weren't otherwise going to see.

Paria_Stark9 days ago
But how is that a positive that people that cannot give a fuck about writing coherent thoughts down to share them can now hog your attention with something that has no clever meaning whatsoever? Is talking just for the sake of talking a good thing in your book?
martin-9 days ago
> people that cannot give a fuck about writing coherent thoughts down

That's clearly not the type of people they are talking about. For some people expressing their thoughts in words is really, really hard. It doesn't mean they don't give a damn. Just like being in a wheelchair doesn't necessarily make you lazy.

etcetcetcetceta9 days ago
This is grotesque.

Everyone is an elitist, when you've enplaned do you assume the pilot is qualified to fly it or do you hope everyone gets a turn? Admittance to the canon is no less a responsibility, would you trust the yoke of human culture to the artless, craftless, and naive?

someguynamedq9 days ago
Ridiculous. Writing and publishing words online is "no less a responsibility" than directly preventing the deaths of hundreds of people?
NoDodgeQuestion9 days ago
>not everyone does their thinking in articulate prose

not everyone does their thinking, if you dont I dont want you to have voice

someguynamedq9 days ago
It should be obvious to you, as a great epicurian of thinking, that the ability to spit out prose is orthogonal to the ability to think thoughts worth prosing about.
unethical_ban9 days ago
This is the equivalent of someone sending me an unsigned birthday card with just the Hallmark writing. They thought of me, but it's not the same.

I still want the imperfect human.

TheCapn8 days ago
I like your analogy.

Because while I dislike AI writing, it matters in context. If someone is trying to formulate a coherent thought of work tasks required of me then I don't really care if it reads like AI as long as the point they're trying to get to me is clear.

If there's an attempt at something human, or emotionally important I will quickly balk at anything spat out through an LLM. If you're trying to communicate at the human level with me I want your input, flaws warts and all.

A card with just...nothing personal on it has as much value as machine text. I understand that you took the effort to think of me, but that's the bare minimum. If trying to express yourself isn't worth the time to make it personal then I'd almost appreciate if you didn't try at all because it hurts more to believe I'm not worth the effort.

watwut9 days ago
How is ai giving them voice? All that generated slop does that you stop to want to read anything. And it is not their voice anyway. It is not their words, their ideas are mixed with ai generated points.

As for second paragraph, the writing "had no overall meaning". There is nothing to respond to if there is no overall meaning.

neilwilson9 days ago
Because not everybody got A* in English.

What we are seeing here is a Luddite reaction from artisans. A skill has been automated and those that have the skill are not happy about it.

For many writing is painful and the machines ease the pain. And like all machines it takes a while to use them skilfully. In particular remembering that like code it is write once and read many. What the reader needs should be at the forefront of a writers mind - both for code and prose.

Nobody gets on a motorbike and wins the TT in the first weekend.

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