173 points•skeptical1884•about 3 hours ago•151 comments•

151 comments

thoughtpeddlerabout 1 hour ago
ADHD/ND here, and I really agree with this one quote from this piece:

> those most affected by executive dysfunction require therapy to be more directive, specific and accountable; that is, processing of past trauma and relational approaches are not sufficient. What often does not seem like trauma therapy at all can lead to great strides forward if it allows individuals to obtain a greater sense of structure and mastery in day-to-day life tasks

I've spent so much time in therapy doing the whole "let's go through your childhood and your past" and it was just not effective in tackling what I really needed. It's remarkable how many licensed therapists just didn't know how to deal with this. I'm sure it's really helpful for some people, but outside of increasing some basic awareness about how my family of origin resulted in present-day behaviors, I definitely reached diminishing returns on that route.

As skeptical as I am of AI as an interventional tool for "reaching our most effective selves", I can't help but feel that if it can be wired up to do the appropriate "micro-interventions" that reflect OP's insight ("directive, specific and accountable ... to obtain a grater sense of structure"), we might see 'ADHD' become a thing of the past (at least for the people that share my phenotype of it). It's my hope at least...

nico10 minutes ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. I feel similarly

On a tangent, this makes me think about the explainability of ai models. In a way, discovering our childhood trauma and the way it affects us, is akin to searching for explainability

However, in practice, the best way to overcome whatever we want to overcome, might not be to first have an explanation of why/how it happened

jack_pp31 minutes ago
Why are you sure it's really helpful for some people?

Before psychology you had religion, even in the oldest form of Christianity, orthodoxy, you are not too dwell on the past, not to blaim others.

I doubt it really truly helps anyone to dig up the past

mrcsd21 minutes ago
Logged in just to say, for me reaching into my past has been one of the most transformative and healing acts I've ever done.
tom_vidal35 minutes ago
What have you found that’s worked for your own executive dysfunction?
tossintowind320about 1 hour ago
I've heard this term "trauma" a lot in the past few years, and often in context where I didn't initially think that word applied in the situation it was used. It's caused me to think about my own childhood and wonder, with that modern understanding of the word, did I experience "trauma"?

I wasn't sexually abused, I wasn't neglected, I wasn't wanting of love. I was however often scolded to a point where I felt horrible about myself. Scolded to a point where I didn't even feel like I could exist without disrupting the world. At times yes, physically scolded but nothing so extreme as to leave a mark.

To be fair to my parents I was a very high energy and "difficult" child. Big emotions. I was always the problem.

Obviously compared to some upbringings this was a walk in the park. But it really did have an impact on me and who I grew up to be. In some ways it was likely a good impact. I learned that my energy had no place in the world. I learned that my emotions would likely cause more problems than they would solve. I learned to shut up, and sit down, and follow the rules, even when every ounce of my inner being wanted to do the opposite.

I've had a myriad of mental health issues throughout my adult life, ranging from low severity to medium, and on some rare occasions high. Genetics? Upbringing? Modern life? All of the above?

avidiaxabout 1 hour ago
What you are describing is emotional neglect and a failure of parenting.

You were meant to learn to recognize and name that energy and emotionality, and then learn to sit with it and develop adaptive coping strategies as needed, not maladaptive ones like negative self-concept and emotional repression.

It can take quite a long time to realize all of this and unlearn the patterns, and unfortunately, first line therapies like CBT are possibly detrimental for these issues.

Edit: also, you need not be fair to your parents. They are meant to adapt to parenting you, even if you were legitimately overactive or overemotional. Instead, you adapted to them.

kubanczyk31 minutes ago
> They are meant to adapt to parenting you, even if you were legitimately overactive or overemotional. Instead, you adapted to them.

That's just your own projection. Both sides adapt, and you haven't heard the other side yet.

Since children turn into adults, and not the other way around, I'd say that children adapt much more than parents.

kennywinkerabout 1 hour ago
For me, making a distinction between the big Trauma with a capital T and little trauma with a lowercase t has been helpful. Any experience that has a lasting negative impact on you could be considered a trauma, but only very extreme stuff - violence, sexual abuse - would count as Trauma.

A car accident is a car accident. Sometimes they are fatal, sometimes the paint gets scratched. People sometimes get long term health effects from a fender-bender.

captainblandabout 1 hour ago
I think there's a degree of some people being maybe genetically predisposed to having more serious adverse reactions to trauma as well. An obvious example is when it leads to psychosis. So the objective reality of what happened is not necessarily the only thing which factors into how it affects somebody's functioning.
taurathabout 1 hour ago
Sounds a lot like CPTSD, which is more about symptoms and responses you have now caused by the continuous situations like you describe. It’s older and there’s been progress on the definition since it came out but Pete Walker’s Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving (and website) is a good resource for the differences between this type of effect form upbringing vs single event traumas.

Personally since reading it and working through my own responses I’ve grown in leaps and bounds where previously I would’ve described myself exactly how you did.

thelaxiankey18 minutes ago
For what it's worth I was a similar kind of child. My problems entirely went away with about 10 (or more) hours of exercise a week. This required a hobby I cared about and the right kind of friends, but since then things have been smooth
tecleandorabout 1 hour ago
> In some ways it was likely a good impact. I learned that my energy had no place in the world. I learned that my emotions would likely cause more problems than they would solve. I learned to shut up, and sit down, and follow the rules, even when every ounce of my inner being wanted to do the opposite.

I'm kinda confused. Is that the good impact you think that had in you? Why?

tossintowind320about 1 hour ago
I guess I just mean that nothing is completely black and white.

I learned to regulate my emotions, one way or another. Did it possibly (likely?) also have a long lasting negative effect on aspects of my mood, motivation, focus, etc.? I think there's a good chance.

peterlkabout 1 hour ago
OPs description resonates with me as well, and the impact is complex, and in my case, probably more good than bad. There is a romantic notion that childish energy shouldn’t be suppressed, but childish energy is what broke my toys (and my body), and I have expensive toys now (motorcycles, house, etc.)

I have found in my own life that the practice of emotional regulation has made me a pretty good diplomat in difficult situations. Sitting down, shutting up, and following the rules when I want to yell at people is the essence of de-escalation.

E-Reveranceabout 3 hours ago
> A diagnosis of ADHD or autism in adulthood often leads to incredible relief and grief in processing all the moments of being blamed and shamed for what was assumed to be a lack of effort, laziness and/or defiance.

This is definitely a factor for me when I tried to get diagnosed (which failed lol), because my parents whom caused my trauma would obviously refuse to blame themselves for my emotionally stunted development

b800habout 1 hour ago
I find this fascinating. "Relief and grief", but one way or another, you were always in trouble or being blamed for being "you".

The thing we call ADHD is just one phenotype amongst thousands. Every behaviour has a cause, and anyone out there who has been through a childhood with traumatic experiences and feelings of guilt and inadequacy need to understand that they don't need to be told that they have the currently-fashionable condition in order to forgive themselves.

This sounds flippant, but I don't mean it to be: What if I said that this happened because you had Mercury in Taurus? The point is here that nothing is your fault. Conversely, everything is; this mirrors the free-will vs predestination paradox.

0x20cowboy3 minutes ago
> you were always in trouble or being blamed for being "you".

And the solution in the article is: how do best make them conform, and “do a bunch of work on themselves” so they are not like themselves, but more like the average.

exe34about 2 hours ago
I simply wrote to the psychiatrist a note that whatever my parents say, they'll make themselves look good, and therefore will paint a rosy childhood for me. I guess it also helped that my then partner was there and told her of how my parents told a "funny story" that made his parents gasp in horror.
tecleandorabout 1 hour ago
Yep, the specialists having interviews with multiple different people from your environment (friends, partners, siblings...) help a lot to differentiate what's real and what not. Also, it's usual that once you pass your twenties you stop living with your parents and/or start shielding them a bit of your struggles, so they don't have the full view of your day to day "fight".

In my case they had interviews with two exes (who are two of my best friends), my sister and my parents.

digitaltreesabout 2 hours ago
What was the funny story.
hktabout 1 hour ago
I just said they didn't believe in ADHD, which in my case - their darling wilted hothoused angel - is true. Relying on a generation that stigmatises autism/ADHD for informant reporting is nuts anyway.
varispeedabout 2 hours ago
Not sure if you noticed the play. You don't have ADHD or autism, you just suffered from trauma.

Government doesn't like that "too many" people want to get support, so looks like they reach for academics.

Same crap they did with cannabis and others when it was impacting certain interests.

E-Reveranceabout 1 hour ago
> You don't have ADHD or autism, you just suffered from trauma.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying, but more specifically I wanted to relieve myself of blame through a label my parents could more easily empathize with

tecleandorabout 1 hour ago
It can be both. It frequently is when you're trying to navigate a condition and everybody is downplaying it or just pointing it as your fault for being stupid or lazy. And, yes, years of that (frequently involuntary) gaslighting creates trauma.
binary132about 2 hours ago
I’m sure a lot of people seeking an ADHD / Autism diagnosis after “discovering” they “totally have it” after seeing a video on social media do not in fact have ADHD / Autism.
taurathabout 3 hours ago
Each begets the other. Trauma and abuse is in many ways (socially) hereditary but often enhanced by neurodivergence. In a brain with sensory sensitivities outside the norm, connection can be difficult (even between ND people), and from that disconnection often arises the sorts of overwhelms in both caregiver and child that make for neglect out of overwhelm or explosive situations.

Couple that with just plain generational trauma - physical punishment that ND people are more sensitive to, the high prevalence of CSA, and a world that doesn’t even try to make any accommodations and you find it more rare to find neurodivergent people who are untraumatized.

One result mentioned here but worth highlighting is the capacity to dissociate and the existence of dissociative disorders. Many people in this cohort also find they have the ability to structurally dissociate as a coping mechanism of last resort - an outsized percentage of people diagnosed with OSDD, DID, and DDNOS are neurodivergent, and among social groups of neurodivergent people often dissociative people will tend to attract - it’s nearly to the point that “capacity to dissociate” could itself be a neurotype. Anyway it’s a fascinating line of study, and if I didn’t have folks w dissociative disorders in my life I might doubt their existence.

OgsyedIEabout 3 hours ago
Because this is a technical article with nonstandard jargon, I'm going to state the most important piece of tacit knowledge that I know psychology professionals have but do not communicate to laymen (I personally came across it somewhere when reading the complete works of Eric Berne, but I can't recall exactly where).

Any apparent disorder in a person or persons has to be decomposed into the innate parts that existed prior to birth and the environmental experiences that happened afterwards as a prerequisite for any kind of theorising to give useful results instead of noise. They call this the diathesis-stress model and it's easily overlooked.

boplicityabout 2 hours ago
> the innate parts that existed prior to birth

What does this mean? Do you mean the congenital aspects of a disorder?

OgsyedIEabout 2 hours ago
Not necessarily. Diathesis is a broader term that includes congenital aspects, maternal stressors and various toxin exposures, among other things.

For example, restricting the range of discourse to the purely congenital excludes things like fetal alcohol syndrome, the ages of both parent's gametes and pre-natal exposure to endocrine disruptors. However, in everyday usage, the diathesis refers primarily to those of the symptoms in the physiology, psychology and behavior of the subject that aren't attributable to life experiences (good and bad) rather than the microbiology specifics that act as carriers for any specific cause.

What's important above all else for the psychiatric practice is effective decomposition of any disease into parts that are amenable to study and treatment, rather than comparison to the hypothetical of what kind of "peak" may be achievable for a specific genotype if everything else went well.

This may be useful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis-stress_model

doublerabbitabout 2 hours ago
The environmental values of the living hood of where the child is to be born in to; is an element I would add to how I intercept it.

Those who are to be born in to an abusive environment may be more prone to continuing the traits of abuse than those who come from reasonable families.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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