Slop, Alienation, Deskilling, and Team Fallout

84 points•haute_cuisine•about 10 hours ago•58 comments•

58 comments

chanuxabout 8 hours ago
> Agents weaken the social fabric of engineering teams by reducing interpersonal communication, increasing self-reliance, and hindering skill expression.

I have a feeling that this is true and it's a bit sad.

CobrastanJorjiabout 8 hours ago
What's been driving me nuts recently is when coworkers send me clearly AI-generated blocks of text in otherwise-human conversations. Like I'll ask in a chat window "hey, Jim, what's the difference between these two deployment pipelines," and I'll get back a block of text with markdown and headings in the style of our team's AI, and I get this sad feeling where I thought I was going to be having a conversation with a colleague, but instead my colleague was just playing as a chinese room.
intrikateabout 8 hours ago
There's a particular sting to being passed raw, unfiltered output from the LLM hose. I think you're onto something with the mismatch in expectations (I was expecting a conversation that led to insights we might both share, and the other party was expecting to answer a question quickly without much thought).

I think there's something deeper than that, too. Almost a feeling of betrayal? I cared in part because I thought everyone else cared, too, like we were working towards a common goal. Asking a question in search of shared understanding only to be passed the modern equivalent of a LMGTFY link hurts in a very particular way. I thought they cared about this, too, but they're only trying to get the bag. I get it, times are difficult right now, but it doesn't make it hurt less.

ryandrakeabout 7 hours ago
I must be lucky or work in a great company, because I've never seen this, and I think it would be totally unacceptable for a coworker to even think about doing this. What kind of horrible company culture normalizes this kind of behavior?

I wonder if this toxic "Why are you talking to me? Just RTFM or ATFLLM (ask the fucking llm)" attitude can be filtered out during interviewing.

kif11about 7 hours ago
"meat proxy" they call it in Bay Area slang dictionary.
chanuxabout 7 hours ago
And it quickly puts a "Let me Google that for you" feeling in the air, but stronger. It discourages you form asking again.
sashank_1509about 7 hours ago
Yeah it’s fucked, our job has been destroyed from a fun team-based intellectual activity to being a button pusher. I imagine something similar happened to tailors who became factory sweatshop workers.

No point crying about it or coping that some bubble will pop and the genie will go back in the bottle. I’m pretty confident that’s not happening, though in the distant future some society will recognize that everything that can be automated should not be automated, that society will look very different and probably won’t happen in my lifetime (it will for one, I predict bring back tailors too).

So here’s my solution, leave the field. If what you enjoyed most was creative problem solving then moving to a field that enables that is the best solution. Yes the next Ruby on Rails app will involve even lesser creativity than before, but is that the situation for the next good aeroplane? Flying car? Small modular nuclear reactor. I suspect just button pushing for that won’t work nearly as well and that’s my plan anyway.

eddythompson80about 6 hours ago
This is how I have been thinking too. Programming as a mass-market career is over the same way being a tailor, a blacksmith, a cobbler a carpenter, etc for the mass market is also over. Unlike programming, those profession enjoyed millennials of history so there is still some type of romantic idea of a "hand made garment" or a "hand made leather shoe", but outside of very small market for that, there is no economical value in those anymore. The fact that a person might have enjoyed sewing or woodworking as a vocation is incidental to people's need for clothes or cabinets.

I don't think anyone would care about "hand made software", arguably no one ever did. You need a tool to do X. The enjoyment of the person producing that tool is entirely incidental. You don't care if the corn you're eating was hand picked by a person who loved manual farm labor or by a combine harvester. Just like you wouldn't care if someone enjoys driving a combine vs a self-driving combine nor if someone enjoys directing self-driving harvesters or if they are self-directing.

sashank_1509about 6 hours ago
Yeah, I think I would avoid video games with AI art or code, I only play indie interesting video games and looking at the public’s reaction I think they too feel the same way, so I do expect a smaller market for handmade video games.

Outside of that it’s hard to envision handmade anything in software in this everything mass produced cheap consumerist society.

raddanabout 2 hours ago
> I don't think anyone would care about "hand made software", arguably no one ever did. You need a tool to do X.

I absolutely do. Perhaps this is a product of my first exposure to computers, but I vividly remember the early Macintosh computers coming on the scene. The care and attention to detail on every level of the machine was special. They were so different than everything before. And it inspired many developers to produce beautiful, weird, awesome software. Does anybody remember the Talking Moose? After Dark? Spaceward Ho! HyperCard? RoboWars? Heck, even MSWord 5.1a was an amazing piece of software whose grammar checker literally taught me grammar.

Now we have “software that does X”, but that X is so bland and enshittified nearly all the joy of computing has been erased. I love writing software. I love writing good and clever software. Perhaps the world no longer cares, but I do.

monospacegamesabout 7 hours ago
>in the distant future some society will recognize that everything that can be automated should not be automated

No, everything that can be automated SHOULD be automated, but the automation should benefit everyone instead of just the 0.1% (actually this percentile keeps getting smaller and smaller, so the percentage of people outside of the "permanent underclass" is probably even less than that now).

The problem about AI (at its current level, barring AI2027 type scenarios) is not about AI, but about the way we've organized society as a whole.

I've brought this up before, if the USSR existed today how would Soviet mathematicians react to AI? Would they be dismayed or overjoyed? You never see mathematicians acknowledge this point, but it's the crux of the issue. In our society employment justifies existence, in a society where existence is inherently justified AI would mean freedom to people instead of causing existential dread.

eli_gottliebabout 7 hours ago
> I've brought this up before, if the USSR existed today how would Soviet mathematicians react to AI? Would they be dismayed or overjoyed? You never see mathematicians acknowledge this point, but it's the crux of the issue. In our society employment justifies existence, in a society where existence is inherently justified AI would mean freedom to people instead of causing existential dread.

Yeah, but even once we've achieved a society in which existence is inherently justified, some things are about the destination and some things are about the journey. We need to organize society around producing people and lives, good lives, as the final economic output. A person we "produce" under such a system will probably be highly skilled and want to participate in society's productive processes, because mastery and participation are real human needs for living a good life.

The question is how we distinguish between processes that are important to the people participating in them, and those that are not. Factory work was and is a massive improvement over subsistence farming, but no population in world history has been permanently satisfied spending their lives on the assembly line, so either we can take advantage of highly automated manufacturing to just have machines do the work or we can redirect automation towards re-involving human craftspeople into producing less interchangeable, higher-quality products (the market has been moving towards customizable commodities anyway).

ryandrakeabout 7 hours ago
Yea, I got into programming because... I like programming. Not whatever the fuck this is. We've been reduced to hamsters pushing a button and getting a little pellet back, over and over.
BatchJobabout 8 hours ago
Its inspiring to see folks putting effort into verbalizing the conflicts and unexpected side effects of working with LLMs. Our feelings really do matter at the end of the day.

But I dont know if they matter to the employers who can only see LLMs as "free milk", and developers as the "milking machine".

ryandrakeabout 7 hours ago
> But I dont know if they matter to the employers who can only see LLMs as "free milk".

Line Must Go Up.

If treating employees with dignity and giving them intellectually challenging and satisfying tasks make Line Go Up, then that's what employers will do. If making us push "Allow Claude To Do This" hundreds of times over and over makes Line Go Up more, then that's what they'll make us do. If sitting us in a factory and giving only our finger freedom of movement makes Line Go Up, that's what they'll do. If strapping us into pods like in The Matrix makes Line Go Up, that's what they'll do. If feeding us into wood chippers makes Line Go Up, that's what they'll do.

131hnabout 7 hours ago
« i’m a smart, but flesh limited human. Split this refactoring slop into an incremental , iterative 2h (1h? 15min) review window sessions.

If you cant do that. Destroy the PR and blame the pilot.

And insert some hidden random jokes for me to keep focus»

paularmstrongabout 9 hours ago
My work Slack channels are ghost-towns. People are logged in, but they're never saying anything. I often find myself wondering if anyone is even working. PRs have their names on them, even the review comments are posted from _their_ accounts, but it is obvious that Claude wrote everything from the code, the unnecessarily verbose change summary, to their comments. Even their replies to my change requests start with "You're right — …".

I miss the days when the engineering Slack channels had long threads of new and interesting ways to do things, discussions of something we could do next to make work easier or fix long-standing issues. We used to build up our own knowledge of who was good at specific things, what they'd be interested in working on. Now everyone just has their slop-machine spit out every piece of a change for the entire stack without paying any attention to the details.

habosaabout 9 hours ago
Fwiw I work at a company where engineers use AI heavily to produce the majority of work outputs but we also have a Slack that's just as lively as ever and plenty of evidence of humanity. Your experience sounds bad and you may be able to find a better one! It's not all bad everywhere.
arodenmaxxingabout 8 hours ago
How established is your team? I can see how teams that existed from the pre-LLM era can maintain their vitality, but would expect newer teams to struggle a lot more. Also, remote or in-person?
selectodudeabout 8 hours ago
Yeah all that time not working is spent in the slack chats. Sounds like place just sucks.
chanuxabout 7 hours ago
I don't want to hear about the state of your Confluence (or equivalent), if you do use it!

Also one more thing I started noticing is unnecessarily detailed comments in code, complete with issue numbers. And some of that belong in version control commit (IMHO).

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