76 points•kaycebasques•about 2 hours ago•107 comments•

107 comments

petcatabout 2 hours ago
You want to see what's really bad, a train wreck in slow motion, just look at what France is doing.

They've been subject to EU Excessive Deficit Procedures for multiple years, must bring deficit-to-GDP ratio from ~5.8% down to 3% within 3 years despite virtually no GDP growth and complete political and societal paralysis about reducing any public benefit or welfare whatsoever.

ECB will most likely get involved after 2029 to start austerity measures. You can predict how that will go over with the French public especially if Le Pen takes the presidency, which looks likely.

Very tough times ahead and the EU is facing a critical point about its future.

zmmmmmabout 2 hours ago
Everyone thinks they can grow their way out of deficits, but it's always a pipe dream. It results in a growth obsessed economic plan that then causes all kinds of other stresses (such as being petrified of cutting immigration, for example). So much of this is all happening in lieu of politicians just being willing to have honest conversations with voters and take a risk of blowback. But I think people are over it and will value authenticity these days enough that it's a false economy. Just tell people the truth.
altcognitoabout 2 hours ago
It can be done, the US did it for decades, but the budget can't be reckless. You can't ignore the top line forever. I accidentally put spending first in this post, and that was a mistake. The US has cut taxes, cut taxes and while it is true that we've done little to curtail wasteful spending, we've not actually addressed the wasteful part, we've just moralized about "who deserves what"
mhh__about 1 hour ago
You absolutely can grow your way out of a deficit - France is maybe the most regulated liberal economy in the world? It's designed not to grow

If you can keep energy costs down and get out of the way there will be growth. It's a thing that happens when people do business and make new things.

dhfirkfabout 1 hour ago
If your deficit funds corporate welfare or war rather than state asset building (infrastructure) that has positive ROI through externalities ofc it’s a mess. But that’s not all deficits
applfanboysbgonabout 2 hours ago
> But I think people are over it and will value authenticity these days enough that it's a false economy. Just tell people the truth.

We have seen abundantly clearly that telling the truth is the worst thing you can do for your political career. The correct move is to lie, lie, lie, lie. Reality is completely irrelevant. All you need to do is tell them what they want to hear. Nothing else matters. They will not hold it against you if you break every promise you make. They'll vote for you again and in greater numbers if you ramp up the promises to even bigger lies, nevermind your track record.

Gigachadabout 2 hours ago
We live in a sick society where billionaires can buy fleets of mega yachts and space ships but governments can't afford to keep functioning.

We have spent decades selling these billionaires government debt instead of just taxing them correctly.

clickety_clackabout 2 hours ago
If France or Germany are involved, it’s doubtful the ECB would be able to impose austerity.
JumpCrisscrossabout 1 hour ago
> must bring deficit-to-GDP ratio from ~5.8% down to 3% within 3 years

Or what? (Seriously.)

Greece was forced to the table because the market wouldn’t lend to it. So long as France has lenders, why does this rule matter?

bigbaguetteabout 1 hour ago
While the far right in France has been gaining traction with full throttle populism on fertile grounds, I wouldn't overestimate their chances to make it to the presidency and discount the fierce opposition that will be expressed the day people cast their vote.

It is still a weak (but loud) political movement which lacks backbone and network.

missedthecueabout 2 hours ago
In 2026, entitlement spending + interest expense will be over 100% of federal tax revenue.

That's before the military, foreign aid, and everything that starts with "Department of"

digitaltrees37 minutes ago
Entitlement spending has its own tax base though doesn't it? We could just raise taxes right?
margalabargalaabout 2 hours ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I thought you were wrong, looked it up, and you're correct.

In 2025, federal gov revenues (total, not just tax) were $5.26T: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/gover...

In 2026, entitlements plus interest is projected to cost $5.45T: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...

JauntTrooperabout 1 hour ago
We would have to raise federal taxes by an average of at least 39% per household and on businesses =just= to balance the deficit.

The reason the US is a comparably "low tax" country is because we're borrowing the difference.

What worries me the most is that this is at a high point in our economic cycle, when tax collection is arguably the highest. The deficit and debt will expand significantly in the next recession.

toomuchtodoabout 2 hours ago
Yeah, cut the $1T/year in defense spending and raise taxes to pay down the debt (to cut $1T/year in interest expenses) and balance the budget. Entitlements remain because workers are entitled to those benefits they worked for. The same workers the wealthiest need to suck $5T+ a year of profit out of the economy.

We used to have 94% top tax bracket rate at one point, and higher tax rates in general. We’ll find the will to raise taxes as soon as the bond market compels the spineless in Congress to find the will (as the cost of debt continues to rise into the future), because you cannot deceive the bond market.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/historical-income...

https://www.axios.com/2026/09/27/rates-borrowing-yields-fisc...

- In projections that the Congressional Budget Office produced last February, net interest costs are already at $1 trillion this year and on track to reach $2 trillion by 2035, meaning that much of federal spending is needed just to service old bills.

- But those projections assumed 10-year Treasury yields were in the ballpark of 4.3%. They're now nearly a full percentage point higher than that.

- In startling numbers that CBO released this week, in a scenario in which interest rates were 1 percentage point higher than its baseline, debt held by the public would grow to 222% of GDP in 2056, 47 percentage points higher than the baseline.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/62758

joegibbsabout 1 hour ago
There's this perception that the majority of US government spending is on the military which is completely untrue.

Defence is only 12% of the US federal budget - what are you going to cut it to? It's not going to solve the issue even if it's abolished. Over the last 10 years health, Medicare and Social Security have grown 103%, 83% and 78% respectively for an increase of $1.64 trillion to $3.55t vs a $916b on defence. With an aging population it's only going to cost more and more over time, you can't continue to put higher taxes on a shrinking share of productive population to care for more and more unproductive retirees under any economic system.

digitaltrees34 minutes ago
Exactly this. Thank you for the thoughtful fact based analysis
kccqzyabout 1 hour ago
I have seen no evidence that Congress cares about what the bond market thinks. In what scenario do you think the bond market can compel Congress?
zeroonetwothreeabout 1 hour ago
It’s essentially impossible to balance the budget without cutting entitlements as the comment you are replying to suggests.
KerrAvonabout 1 hour ago
the right wing is not going to like where this all leads (and neither are the centrists or any of the rest of us, tbh)
tokioyoyoabout 2 hours ago
My knowledge of new-gen-econ is pretty subpar, but isn't the strategy of US "don't dare to bet against us, we're writing new rules of the game"? It feels like all governments are acknowledging "letting it rip will suck for everyone, so why would we even bother". Normal monetary policy has been thrown out of the window, and every large state bank has stated it very openly throughout the wars that have started in this decade. And this leads to a lot of state-level financial backdoor discussions, deals and "stuff" that I'm not knowledgeable enough to even think about.

Wild times. Maybe it's information overload, since it probably happened in the past as well. But being bombarded with implications of these changes left and right is kinda weird.

tokioyoyoabout 2 hours ago
I'll comment under my own post about "why i think this is happening" - it's the fact that the average age of the population in the world is higher than it has ever been, especially in richer countries. Just like the "housing theory of everything" posts that circulated around some time ago, I think that is the core reason why so many illogical decisions are being thrown around.

I don't have deep knowledge, other than a bunch of "pattern matchings" I've done throughout my readings, but as people get older, on average, their wants/needs change over time. Older people, especially as they get closer to retirement age, have more free time as well. Implicitly, these desires eventually bubble up into economic/political action, that's more or less unprecedented. It would be very cool to research this more in depth, but unfortunately i'm in the wrong field.

bobthepandaabout 2 hours ago
Normal economic policy hasn’t really been true since the 2007 financial crisis. Rates were kept at historically low rates because growth was anemic and everyone had seen Japan fail to pump up its economy. To some degree there was also thinking that countries in this situation should provoke inflation to get the growth flywheel growing again; at least the fixes to inflation are known vs deflation.

Well, it turns out that we did it with the COVID economic shocks, and for a while there was talk of a “soft landing” but that’s all but disappeared from the conversation.

derf_about 1 hour ago
I don't think it's correct to say "rates were kept low" as if the Fed had a choice in the matter. All the Fed can really do is respond to market conditions. It can be slow to react, and it could in theory be wrong about the market in a way that causes economic damage (in one direction or the other), but it can't really do better than the implied market rate.

Interest rates were kept at historic lows for a decade because the 2008 crisis caused available credit to absolutely implode, which destroyed a huge swath of the effective money supply. Leverage ratios at banks went from north of 40:1 to closer to 10:1. Without ZIRP and QE and all of the rest, we would have had outright deflation, kicking off the kind of deflationary debt spiral that made the Great Depression so bad.

That kind of dramatic destruction of credit did not happen during the pandemic. The banks were fine [0]. What happened was that the economic output of actual goods and services collapsed. So high levels of stimulus led to more money chasing fewer real resources, and you got inflation instead.

This should not have been a surprise.

[0] Modulo a few like SVB that blew up a couple of years later because they had forgotten that interest rates could also go up.

tokioyoyoabout 2 hours ago
I agree, 2007 definitely changed a lot of "assumptions". But there were no "every main bankman stating out loud that aight, we're playing a new game now". Maybe 2007 started it, but 2020s, I'd say, is where everyone publicly acknowledged it?

> everyone had seen Japan fail to pump up its economy

Agreed about this, but I feel like everyone is watching Japan right now again. And I fear people will make wrong assumptions, given how its "economy is growing right now".

to11mtmabout 1 hour ago
Well, it's still complicated because of the global economy.

- Most of the AI Companies are HQed in the US, and that's the 'hot thing' for the market overall

- Google and Apple have enough presence (i.e. some may be doing tax things but...) in the US and at least one of them has gotten 'too big to properly antitrust'.

- If we look deep enough, even some of the fanciest ASML tech is a result of IP sharing from US companies that are almost certainly government backed (i.e. ASML might be the ones working with other companies to help make it useful/scalable, but the tech is invented here.)

Ironically, something I would have listed at the top 10-15 years ago but is now last on the list...

- For the last (well, now) 80 years the US has been able to project an outward image of overall economic stability and relative growth; The closest it came to a crisis in the past was when the Bretton-Woods system collapsed and France came over and collected their gold.

On the flip side, there is the 'guard'.

- Any current bondholders have to choose between holding at the current rate, or selling at a discount. It becomes a 'Well do we really thing it will all fall apart before then or do we just hold?'. Because any new bonds, even at the current rate, would be carrying that risk on the open market if a sell-off occurred. IOW 'Is a bond I have now less the arbitrage cost going to be worth more than just holding it'.

What's important is what happens next. If we look at the Bretton-Woods collapse, there were a number of actions taken, many (most?) of them questionable, however it was pulling a bunch of levers at once and unpulling versus debating which lever to pull.

There is the confounding factor where parties are arguing that there is market manipulation going on, that changes the question of whether to hold onto existing bonds rather than making other options. After a certain maturity percentage one has to ask whether you hold or sell based on climate.

tokioyoyoabout 1 hour ago
I guess all you said makes sense.

> There is the confounding factor where parties are arguing that there is market manipulation going on

My understanding is, it’s not even an argument anymore. Like the latest Yen intervention from the states was basically a state level manipulation, no? I mean there’s nothing really illegal. And it makes sense, and very much public. But one can assume there are just many more behind-the-scenes activity going on as well.

GenerWorkabout 2 hours ago
The primary issue is Social Security. It’s the biggest driver of spending, and nobody wants to do anything to cap its costs such as means testing or straight up lowering the amount it can pay out.

As for the people that will inevitably bleat about how this is just horrible and we need to lift the cap on taxable SS income, that wouldn’t solve the core problem either unless you pair it with spending caps or cuts.

consumer451about 2 hours ago
There is an easy solution to make Social Security solvent. Uncap the contribution. Problem solved.
missedthecueabout 1 hour ago
This would add some more years of runway but does not solve the problem. Eventually, the fund would reach insolvency again. The SSA actuaries estimate that removing the cap would add 21 years before insolvency. 21 years may sound like a lot compared to the handful remaining now, but is well before the retirement age of the average person reading this comment.

Also an underdiscussed issue with such a policy is that while it increases social security fund revenue, it decreases the amount of federal revenue collected. The CBO estimates that about 15% of revenues gained by an uncapped SSA tax are offset (lost) by a reduction in federal revenues. Worsening the deficit problem.

https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/60955

pgodzinabout 1 hour ago
that would be one of the largest tax increases in history, used to fund transfer payments to the disproportionately wealthy
kolanosabout 2 hours ago
Why would someone contribute more than they are legally required?
glimsheabout 2 hours ago
"Means testing" is the bad Social Security idea of the year. SS isn't a welfare program. Trimming benefits, changing retirement date (for all) and uncapping contributions are much more palatable to voters.
BoiledCabbageabout 1 hour ago
> The primary issue is Social Security.

No it's not. It's about 15% of the 2 trillion dollar defecit. Whoever told you that mislead you.

seanmcdirmidabout 1 hour ago
> and nobody wants to do anything to cap its costs such as means testing or straight up lowering the amount it can pay out.

You forgot the huge one, which is uncapping the amount of income it is applied to.

shartsabout 1 hour ago
Social security is only collected from incomes 184K and below.

It’s literally not a spending problem at all.

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