Lindsay Owens’s new book details all the ways that corporations seek to maximize profits at your expense.

91 points•paimapi•1 day ago•111 comments•

111 comments

tuesdaynightabout 10 hours ago
It's only fair that these companies have real time data about your private messages and smartphone use to know your hunger level and price accordingly. I don't want to pay the same price that people that didn't have lunch at the right time paid. This is still not that, but we should look forward to that idea in the future. People that find this a bad thing are just unknowledgeable about free market and pricing signals. I could call them communists, but I won't go there (yet).
sib1 day ago
"Did you know that home insurers use aerial drones to study your rooftop? If the conditions signal neglect, they might cancel your coverage before an accident."

While there are certainly some issues of concern in the article and the reviewed book, the above seems like exactly what insurance companies should be doing: pricing (or making available) coverage based upon risk.

This is not much different from an auto insurance company raising your rates (or cancelling coverage) because you've received a number of speeding tickets, which implies increased future risk of loss.

In fact, I received a letter from my homeowners insurance company a couple years ago stating that they would not renew our coverage due to conditions that they'd observed (clearly from aerial imagery) including overgrown bushes touching the walls of the house and some larger tree branches growing over the house.

I had a landscaping company come and fix the issues, sent my own drone up to take new pictures, sent the company the pictures, and they agreed to continue coverage. And now my house has less future risk of damage. This seems like a win-win for both of us.

The issue is that often the data gathered and used with no consideration of other evidence. For example, I had a similar situation of home insurance sending a letter demanding I replace my roof based on drone footage. No issue was immediately obvious from the footage and we had just replaced the roof less than 5 years earlier. We had an inspection done and then sent both proof of replacement and the inspection report. We were told the drone footage alone would be used in their decision, and we still had to replace the roof to keep coverage.

So it is not necessarily objective, fairly considered observations (and I think pretty different from speeding tickets). At least in our case it was maximally for the benefit of the insurer. I think that is relevant to their claimed premise.

SoftTalker1 day ago
Never heard of this happening. It's weird anyway because roofs are something you're expected to maintain and are pro-rated. If you have storm damage to a 20 year old roof, your insurance is only going to pay for the estimated remaining life, not the full cost of a new roof.

If the roof is beyond end-of-life they probably won't pay anything, as it's a predictable cost of owning a home not an unexpected loss which is what insurance is for. Same reason they won't pay to have a tree taken down just because it could fall and cause damage. You're supposed to maintain your property; insurance is for losses beyond normal wear and tear/maintenance expense.

codedokode1 day ago
The house insurance in this case is a part of a mortgage contract or voluntary insurance? And if it is a part of a mortgage (as an extra payment), how does one predict how much they will have to pay for unexpected things like fixing the roof, and how does one estimate the full cost of a loan?

Also if it is a part of the mortgage why doesn't the lender pay for it? They need it, not the homeowner.

Is insurance company affiliated with companies doing the repairs?

wat100001 day ago
Insurance is fundamentally lopsided in the risk of a bad decision by the insurer. They have little incentive to keep you as a customer, since the potential profit is just not that big. And thus they have little incentive to do a thorough investigation of potential problems. It's just not worth it. They'd rather dump you, or risk forcing you to replace a perfectly good roof, than put effort into determining whether their report is accurate.

It's a funny business. Every insurer wants better risk assessment, since it's a competitive advantage. At the same time, the better the risk assessment gets, the less point there is to having insurance in the first place. At the limit, insurers that could accurately predict the future would charge you premiums equal to your actual future costs and you might as well just put the premiums in a savings account instead.

Toynbeeidea1 day ago
I wouldn't accept a five-year old report either. Stuff can change in five months.
KennyBlanken1 day ago
> We were told the drone footage alone would be used in their decision, and we still had to replace the roof to keep coverage.

This is the point where you stop talking to the insurance company and start talking to an attorney as well as your state insurance commission.

darth_avocado1 day ago
> pricing (or making available) coverage based upon risk.

The whole point of insurance is to manage risk by spreading it across all consumers. If my insurance rates go up based on my usage or individual risk factors, it’s just an elaborate money making scheme. It should be like “everyone has to pay x to get insurance to get covered and if the claims start going up, everyone has to pay more”.

sib1 day ago
>> The whole point of insurance is to manage risk by spreading it across all consumers.

Yes, but this does not imply that customers with (potentially vastly) different risk profiles should pay the same rates.

The canonical example is that 18-year-old single males with previous speeding tickets pay more for auto insurance than married 40-year-old women with clean driving records.

scottLobster1 day ago
Why should safe drivers pay the same rate as people with multiple DUIs?

Why should someone who has an unpatched hole in their roof pay the same rate as someone who maintains their roof?

So much this.

But then again, there's presumably some sort of balance. If someone insists on building and rebuilding in a flood or fire zone, it's not obvious that everyone else should see their premiums go up to cover that. One option is for the insurance company to just cease insuring the property(ies), but I suspect there's more overall negatives to that than if they bump the premiums of clients in specific locales.

gpderetta1 day ago
> This is not much different from an auto insurance company raising your rates (or cancelling coverage) because you've received a number of speeding tickets

This is more like your insurer following you around and evaluating your driving skills.

And yes black boxes are a thing but a) are opt-in and b) universally reviled.

gbacon1 day ago
Prices carry information and are not arbitrary. Insurance is a paid transfer of risk. Policies that have greater risk of loss require higher premium charges or the insurer goes broke.

Actuarial science is its own field that prices uncertain future events. As you’re bringing out here, the insurer has additional uncertainty as to the actual driving habits of their policyholders, so some conservatism is likely priced in. Aggressive drivers would like to pay the premiums of careful drivers.

This is related to the origin of GEICO, Government Employees Insurance Company. Back in the day, you had to be a state or federal employee for them to bind coverage. The investment thesis was that civil servants’ caution in their choice of employment was an accurate indication of their overall risk appetite and risk-taking behavior. GEICO was able price policies lower without going broke because they by design insured a lower-risk population.

sib1 day ago
Presumably since many people opt in, they are not universally reviled. In fact, I'd wager that people who are safer-than-average drivers don't revile them at all and actually appreciate the fact that their premiums are reduced by virtue of the evidence of their safe driving habits.
Muromec1 day ago
In normal places that's what police is for, but the decisions were made.
grebc1 day ago
Seems like a rare instance of an insurance company actually doing their job and providing actuarial services rather than just gouging you after a claim.
mindslight1 day ago
The problem is that every facet they add to the analysis increases the complexity, making it harder to price risk - meaning they'll eagerly overprice [0] (based on "what if") with some idea that "the market" (ie nobody) will sort it out. This creates a race to the bottom against anything that might seem "weird", aka regular people just living their lives (while being put under a microscope), similar to how the ever growing housing bubble has painted most houses beige.

Your bushes only seem like a reasonable example because you are looking at them in isolation - it was only a single issue you had to deal with, and something you seemingly wanted to deal with anyway. If they had instead blasted you with a litany of different issues, or a bush that you wanted to keep for sentimental reasons, or you simply didn't have the time/resources to create your own counter-documentation and operate their heavyweight bureaucracy, you'd be singing a much different tune.

And while these things can happen anyway with regular in-person home inspections, the point is that increasing surveillance and unaccountable "AI" make it much easier to bury customers in a deluge of complexity making for even-less-competitive markets.

(I would give a healthy list of examples of my own home being deficient in many ways an insurance inspector would call out yet are in the process of being managed, but I'm sure it would just invite a lot of "well ackshually that's dangerous and weird!" out of touch responses from people whose first instinct is to call someone rather than to fix something themselves)

[0] Notice how they weren't going to raise your premiums by $30 a year or whatever, but outright cancel your policy - in other words a massive overweighting of the actual risk from some bushes growing into the house.

sib1 day ago
>> Notice how they weren't going to raise your premiums by $30 a year or whatever, but outright cancel your policy - in other words a massive overweighting of the actual risk from some bushes growing into the house.

Given that the annual premium is like 0.27% of the value of the policy, a change in risk of a few percent because some big tree limbs were hanging over the house or because some brushes might have enabled a fire to spread to the house more easily could clearly swamp the value of the premium to them.

And, to be clear, I didn't want to spend $2,000 to fix the problems, I would have rather not had to deal with it, but that's part of the joy of being a homeowner.

====

We live in a place (California) where the government has generally prevented homeowners insurance companies from effectively charging for risk (e.g., wildfires) and therefore many companies have stopped writing policies altogether. This doesn't seem like a good outcome. Note that this is the same state that won't let auto insurers charge based on "black boxes" either, so good drivers are subsidizing bad drivers (even more than in other places).

Paedor1 day ago
My issue with dynamic pricing boils down to price discovery and information asymmetry.

When I buy something, I really don't know what it's supposed to cost. Barring atypical levels of research, I know how much it's worth to me, and how much it usually costs, and that's it.

But my supermarket knows almost exactly how much eggs are worth to me. If it can show me, and everyone else, a different price at different times of day, I'm no longer confident in my ability to "bargain" effectively with the supermarket. So while I can see some strong economic arguments for dynamic pricing, especially in cases like power or water usage where there's a very inflexible supply, I basically just don't trust that we won't get screwed.

Fixes could be possible. Maybe with a third party system for monitoring prices, quality, etc. But it's hard, and pretty obviously not solved in the current market, much less one with even more price complexity.

timoth3y1 day ago
I have a a modest proposal. Any company wishing to use this kind of dynamic pricing should be willing to submit itself to "dynamic taxation".

Under dynamic taxation, we the public, would examine that firm's books at the end of the fiscal year and decide how much taxes they owe based on their ability to pay.

Note that companies are not natural people, they do not have a fundamental right to exist. Just like under dynamic pricing, if the shareholders and board think their dynamic taxes are too high, they are perfectly free to just dissolve the company and use their capital elsewhere.

jfil33 minutes ago
I love this. Eventually, this kind of taxation will happen. Especially in countries where the Rule Of Law is breaking down.
xnx1 day ago
Competition, and being willing to shop around is the only thing that has ever kept prices down.
horsawlarway1 day ago
Which is why we're entering that fun stage of capitalism where the winners have won enough that they just buy up any possible competition in the market, and regulators absolutely fail to enforce any sort of anti-trust/anti-monopoly measures because they're just another thing that's been bought up.

Nothing like

- Major bank consolidation

- Major media condolidation

- Major tech consolidation

- Major grocery store consolidation

etc... to really provide wonderful competitive options.

gbacon1 day ago
I reject the eschatology that your comment assumes. I believe we agree, however, that the answer is more competition, not less.

But imposing heavier regulatory burdens has disproportionately adverse effects on smaller would-be competitors. The big, established players know this and actively engage in enlargement of regulatory scope and regulatory capture to widen their moats. Historical examples of this are Jeff Bezos encouraging states to be more aggressive in requiring sales tax levies on internet purchases and more recently the calls by Sam Altman and Dario Amodei to “pace” AI through regulation. On the surface, they appear to be public-spirited moves but are deeply self-interested.

fmajid1 day ago
Here's how antitrust was gutted by Robert Bork and the Chicago School:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/robert-borks-america...

xnx1 day ago
It might differ by geography, but I have no complaints about bank, media, or grocery consolidation. Not sure what tech consolidation would be. My main gripe is ISP monopolies.
john_strinlai1 day ago
you left out the best example of having no ability to shop around: internet.

do you want comcast or comcast?

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

Related stories