247 points•laurenth•2 days ago•97 comments•

97 comments

DanielHBabout 16 hours ago
If anyone is interested I made a build that can make most items at the highest quality possible using a single assembler by switching the active recipe on the assembler. You just throw in the basic resources for the base items in the recipe and it just builds the whole thing at legendary quality.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FactorioBlueprints/comments/1gl5v50...

It takes a bit of setup for each item you want to make though and doesn't work if the process takes more than one fluid. The default in the blueprint is to make blue circuits.

Unfortunately factorio has this mechanic where if you switch the item an assembler is making it loses progress for productivity bonuses, so this setup is not really practical for many items. Plus it takes a lot of space. But it is fascinating to see it work.

scottmsulabout 11 hours ago
Oh boy, this is a rabbit hole I've gone down pretty hard as well. I made a python script and a separate js app for running linear solvers on the upcycling problem. I really like the author's exposition for how to setup the solve matrix, as it's the first step when understanding the quality math.

Speaking very high level, probably the most interesting and counter-intuitive thing I learned from doing these projects is that adding just a touch of speed modules can go a long way, especially at the lower quality levels. Of course, if the only thing being optimized is legendary outputs per common input, then speed is always bad. But because an upcycler works much better when the buildings and modules are themselves legendary, usually the limiting factor is the (very expensive) crafting machines, rather than the amount of input lines. Adding a touch of speed can give way more throughput for the same number of legendary crafting machines, at the cost of some wasted inputs, which isn't a big deal when you can slap down a few more cheap miners.

Python script: https://github.com/scottmsul/FactorioQualityOptimizer

JS source: https://github.com/scottmsul/upcycle

JS app: https://scottmsul.github.io/upcycle

jvanderbotabout 9 hours ago
Yeah same! I had this essentially same writeup in drafts for my blog, and got distracted by ... factorio ... and never finished it. Glad to see the direction and findings confirmed. Excellent writeup.
delichonabout 8 hours ago
> and got distracted by ... factorio ... and never finished it

If the boffin head-space consumed by Factorio never happened, we may have been building factories on distant planets by now.

bombcarabout 10 hours ago
The dynamic between speed and energy was already interesting and counter-intuitive (often you wanted efficiency even though slower, because it greatly reduced POWER needs which could decrease your base size significantly).
michael-onlineabout 9 hours ago
> Factorio pretty much founded the factory video game genre

I feel very nerd sniped by this one! Factorio was heavily influenced by minecraft mods like industrialcraft2 which create factories inside of minecraft. Here's the factorio creator discussing it in 2013 https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/

As usual, the ouroboros of culture continues, and now minecraft mods spend lots of time imitating factorio, as well as iterating from the same original seeds.

weegee101about 5 hours ago
I feel nerd sniped by this too. Factory games go back to the 90s. There are probably earlier ones too, but Free Enterpri$e (https://www.mobygames.com/game/2408/free-enterprise/) is the earliest I know. In terms of factory mechanics, there are many similarities with modern factory games. Unfortunately, it feels like a game from 1996 and I'm pretty sure it's impossible to turn a profit in it.
wafflemakerabout 7 hours ago
>Factorio was heavily influenced by minecraft mods like industrialcraft2 which create factories inside of minecraft.

Can't forget dwarf fortress, the freeware game that inspired Minecraft. Written by two Asperger's brothers. It was super heartwarming when, after times they had to stop working on the game and move down lawns to make a living, they finally published on steam and became independent.

adamrezichabout 6 hours ago
> and became independent

I haven't followed Dwarf Fortress in awhile but don't they have a publisher now?

fabian2kabout 16 hours ago
The difference between Washing and Upcycling is enormous. That does fit my observations, it's nice to see it quantified.

Another aspect that is nice to see quantified is how big the effect of better quality modules is. You likely underestimate that initially since it's not linear.

The Space Casino mentioned in the post is not possible anymore in Factorio 2.1. Which is experimental at the moment, but I'd assume will be released soon. And experimental Factorio tends to be as stable or more as the stable versions of other games.

webererabout 12 hours ago
Yeah, they announced the space casino removal in one of their Friday blog posts.

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-442

kabakabakabaabout 16 hours ago
Im so glad that the Space Casino is getting removed. It being so unreasonably effective ruins the fun
unglaublichabout 11 hours ago
Some folks say: "if you don't like it, don't use it?" same holds for LDS where you can also argue that throwing a piece of legendary plastic in lava shouldn't produce legendary steel and copper.

Well, I guess we'll have a small mod that reenables it for those interested; and the standard game can be the guide on gameplay balance.

butlikeabout 6 hours ago
Why patch out fun on a single player game? Simply don't use it if it's not fun...
crdrost12 minutes ago
> Infinite sums are rather inconvenient to calculate in finite time, although this one does converge to a finite value since the terms become exponentially smaller. We could compute until the terms because small enough for an approximation, but that would be unsatisfactory when an exact solution is possible. The key insight is that it doesn’t matter how many times a given item has already been through the loop, only what quality tier it has now.

Isn't the matrix

    M = 1 + L + L^2 + ...

    M = (1 - L)^-1
...? L isn't invertible, but 1 - L is.

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