136 points•6thbit•2 days ago•141 comments•

141 comments

2ss2 days ago
2 things can be true:

-LLMs profoundly change society -The LLM business is mangled in terms of ROIC vs CoC

Such a business already exists - airlines.

This nuance is what many here refuse/find difficult to understand.

throw0101a1 day ago
> -LLMs profoundly change society -The LLM business is mangled in terms of ROIC vs CoC

People seem to have forgotten the bust in railroads and Internet (etc), even though those technologies were transformative:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_Revolutions_and_...

One thing I'm wonder about: previous busts left useful infrastructure behind (rail, fibre) that could still be used. If/When the AI/LLM companies go bust, what will be left over afterwards and how useful will it be?

xnxabout 6 hours ago
> what will be left over afterwards and how useful will it be?

Don't focus on the hardware. The models themselves are tremendously valuable. These tools would've been considered alien technology just 15 years ago.

Seems like it might leave behind underutilized data centers full of subsidized compute seeking paying tenants.
jedberg1 day ago
> previous busts left useful infrastructure behind (rail, fibre) that could still be used. If/When the AI/LLM companies go bust, what will be left over afterwards and how useful will it be?

Many many idle GPUs.

CoolestBeans2 days ago
Well said, the technology can be transformative while being structurally challenging to build a viable business around.
runarberg2 days ago
But the technology also doesn’t have to be transformative either. I for one am not convinced.

The two things being true may as well be: LLM will not be transformative and the LLM business is mangled in terms of ROIC vs CoC.

In fact given the behavior of AI companies, I actually consider it more likely then not that the effects of the technology is severely over-hyped. I for one do not trust the words of the people who mangle their business in terms of ROIC and CoC. Why should I?

pid-12 days ago
Isn't telecom kinda the same? Lots and lots of capex, turned into dumb pipes that can't extract value from their customers.
akersten2 days ago
If my ridiculous $100+/m subscription to the single dumb pipe that has a government-endorsed monopoly in my area is anything to go by, they're extracting plenty of value from this customer at least.
mattm2 days ago
I don't think telecom is the same. 2025 net income for the big 3 US telecoms: AT&T: $22B Verizon: $17B T-Mobile: $11B
JumpCrisscross2 days ago
> Such a business already exists - airlines

Also computers. DEC and IBM and Gateway and whatever didn't extract the economic benefits of digitization. Even Apple extracts a vanishing fraction of the economic benefits the iPhone has created.

Panzer041 day ago
Well, you can extract all the value created using your tools and inventions, because then no one would have any incentive to use them to create value.

They try to get around this by charging you more after you've invested in your tools, but even then you can only go so far (though it's astonishing how far the big guys have managed to get regardless)

iririririr2 days ago
what everyone is missing from the example: neither airline nor telecom requires a trillion dollar investments to get the same revenue
simonw2 days ago
I'm confused.

The numbers that Reuters describe in this article were entirely for 2025.

It's been well documented that Anthropic's revenue growth in 2026 has been enormous. This was the year of coding agents, and tokenmaxxing, and companies blowing enormous amounts of money on AI thanks to coding agent users spending hundreds (or thousands) of dollars a day.

Given that, I don't understand why the article and the headline are based exclusively on those 2025 numbers, with not so much as a hint to the reader that there are figures from the past 9 months that aren't covered by the documents Reuters saw.

Losing $8bn in 2025 isn't particularly notable if you've made ~10x that amount of revenue in 2026.

(How much did they lose in 2026? Wouldn't we love to know that!)

Is this just a thing with leaked IPO prospectuses and coverage of them?

Betelbuddy2 days ago
You know the losses increased even more massively or Anthropic itself would have leaked the number already...

Most interesting: "Anthropic said nearly a quarter of its revenue came from two customers last year, and as part of its risk factors, warned that many of its largest clients were not locked into long-term contracts and could cut or stop spending."

simonw1 day ago
But that was in 2025. It's not surprising to hear that in 2025 they had two customers responsible for a quarter of their revenue (those companies were Cursor and GitHub Copilot btw) - they hadn't yet sold Claude Code packages to vast numbers of large companies.
TheqO2 days ago

    >It's been well documented that Anthropic's revenue growth in 2026 has been enormous.
Has it? Don't they just self-leak/press release 'ARR' revenue claims? Has there been any audited and formal filings? Including all the off-balance sheet and other creative stuff
simonw1 day ago
We've also heard plenty of stories from companies like Uber about a need to set a limit on their token spending because they were spending so much on Anthropic. That's a solid sign that the revenue numbers are real.
blitzar2 days ago
Trust me bro ... enormous ... and we are going to destroy the human race too.
snorrah2 days ago
Simon you're really going to need to float the numbers for us if you're going to make claims about enormous revenue. And don't forget to include things like cost of revenue as well !
simonw1 day ago
I assembled some of those numbers in May, when they claimed they had grown from $9bn in annualized revenue in December 2025 to $47bn in early May. https://simonwillison.net/2026/May/29/anthropic/

Since then they've reported $65bn in annualized revenue by July: https://simonwillison.net/2026/Aug/23/anthropics-best-ai-mod...

And sure, they might be lying about those figures - but if they are, that's investor fraud, and they'll be in hot water with the SEC when they try to IPO. I don't think they are lying about the figures.

If I had numbers on their cost of revenue I would share those. As it stands I'm going to have to wait for either more leaks or their S-1.

camdenreslink2 days ago
Presumably the expenses would also be higher in 2026 as well, because inference costs scale with usage and I think training their new large models would be in there as well.
janderson2152 days ago
I’m not sure “presumption” is a valid methodology to evaluate a company’s performance.
sensanaty2 days ago
> It's been well documented that Anthropic's revenue growth in 2026 has been enormous.

By whom, exactly?

Every half-respectable programmer has at least the pro subscription.
camdenreslink2 days ago
Some of these numbers are crazy. The scale of them is hard to comprehend.

- $42 billion net loss in 2025

- $518 billion in infrastructure obligations coming up (EDIT)

- 1/4 of revenue coming from 2 customers

ac292 days ago
Not $518B in the next year, they plan "to spend $518 billion on cloud, computing and infrastructure obligations in coming years" (number of years unspecified)
hajile1 day ago
Looking at Nvidia sales and even the most optimistic "use this GPU for 6 years despite its horrible inefficiency", you still get a very big number per-year.

Google, Amazon, Oracle, Microsoft, Meta, SpaceX, and tons of other startups are spending trillions on data centers, but everyone is renting them out. They aren't renting them to each other (and paying the extra overhead when they have their own servers).

That leaves basically just OpenAI and Anthropic on the hook to pay for everything BEFORE the GPU half of it depreciates away, but they are busy cutting prices to compete with Chinese models which runs counter to their need to increase prices to fulfill their obligations.

siva72 days ago
I guess those 2 customers must be state actors as one of them must be spending at least 12B$ ?
kamranjon2 days ago
does anyone understand what this part actually means?

"The near-$42 billion net loss included a roughly $34 billion accounting charge that reflected an increase in the estimated value of financing that could eventually turn into Anthropic shares, rather than money the company spent running its business."

AntiRush2 days ago
This is likely a convertible debt investment from Amazon being revalued. The numbers are pretty close, there might be some smaller notes in there too.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1018724/000101872426...

gonzalohm2 days ago
If I understand correctly it means that they have a lot of debt and with increasing interest rates, they have to spend a significant chunk in just paying interest
FuckButtons2 days ago
They increased the projected liability of pre-existing financial deals that include share options.
jonas212 days ago
Convertible notes are worth more as the valuation of the company increases and under accounting rules that’s considered an expense for the company?
runarberg2 days ago
If you truly believe that the cost of financing should not be included in your net loss (I don‘t know anything about money, so I don‘t know whether you should or not) $8 billion in net loss is also mindboggingly large number.

As a member of the working class who believes this money is coming from systemic exploitation of the working classes, I hate it that Anthrhopic can just loose $8 billion like that. Those $8 billion could have been used elsewhere, including to mitigate the effects of the climate disaster, to educate the youth, towards social security, or to increase the wages of the working people who could have used it to pay rent, or go to the cinema, or a family trip to visit their grandma who lives in Wyoming.

knuppar2 days ago
Factor in their margin being chewed through with every open model release.

That spending obligation sounds extremely unlikely to be fulfilled without a bailout. Anthropic's IPO is them passing the hot potato forward.

vineyardmike2 days ago
There won’t be a bailout. I doubt the obligations will even amount to anything substantial anyways.

Many of these obligations are with the big clouds who don’t have capacity to serve them anyways. Google has said they have hundreds of billions in purchase obligations they can’t fill because they don’t have enough TPUs and data centers. Google gets a bigger marketing and investor headline, and there’s a queue behind Anthropic if they bail, so of course everyone would sign the commitments knowing the risks.

I’m sure AWS and Azure are on the same page.

In the worst case, many of their biggest customers have tons of GPUs (Meta, AWS), so they could always license out their raw models at steep discount to help absolve themselves of the obligations.

Finally, in the worst case scenario, even with margin compression, they pre-purchased most of the compute so there’s not enough for the open models to run on. If Opus was the same price as Kimi/GLM, I doubt many people would pick the open models.

lokar2 days ago
I feel like we can't really evaluate them until we see a fairly detailed breakdown that shows inference margin, training costs and non-compute R&D
fwip2 days ago
This is true. If they aren't showing the details, it's because the details make them look worse.
jameskilton2 days ago
> Anthropic said nearly a quarter of its revenue came from two customers last year, and as part of its risk factors, warned that many of its largest clients were not locked into long-term contracts and could cut or stop spending.
Aboutplants2 days ago
One of those customers is the US government, I wonder who the other one is
throwaway813482 days ago
Likely Meta
smb062 days ago
I'm guessing XAI
datadrivenangel2 days ago
Probably cursor.
enjoyyourlife2 days ago
Amazon is my guess
elzbardico2 days ago
Nah, more probably some VC backed coding tool startup.
sarjann2 days ago
Is it possible those are cloud providers? Someone using Claude on google vertex might just switch to Claude on AWS or Anthropic. Also I don’t imagine cloud providers suddenly cutting the cord.
wmf2 days ago
I would assume clouds count as resellers not customers.
sensanaty2 days ago
Gaap net loss almost 42B on less than 5B of revenue, I cant even imagine. Where does all the money go? If the name attached to this was anything other than Anthropic these would be some seriously horrible financials, and that's before getting into all the colorful accounting they're using.

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