Notes from the underground of film preservation.

694 points•piotrgrabowski•2 days ago•375 comments•

375 comments

alexpotato2 days ago
> Spencer Draper—best known as the Damn Fool Idealistic Crusader on YouTube, where he reviews the technical and historical aspects of digital releases with a rigor usually reserved for scholarly peer review

I will occasionally think about various topics "I'm really into <thing> but is anyone else in to <thing>??"

And then I read a quote like the above and I realize that, for lack of a better phrase, "it's a big world out there" and people have many varied interests.

Plus, if folks are REALLY into <thing> then they want different perspectives about <thing> even if it's a sub-topic that has been covered before.

In other words, write blog posts and make videos. Someone will consume that content and you never know where that leads.

toyg1 day ago
This is what the early web was all about: people sharing their obscure hobbies and obsessions with everyone else, building small communities across the world. It was beautiful. It is still out there, to a degree, but unfortunately the socials have sucked the air out of publishing on external websites. Back in the day, this guy would have had his own blog or specific AV/cinephile forum, and now he's just another guy on youtube.
usef-1 day ago
More otimistically, there were far fewer obsessive niches online then as the technical requirements were so large to set a site up. Even if the ones that existed were great.

There are a lot more obsessive YouTube channels and newsletters in a lot more varied niches today by comparison. I'm delighted regularly by new discoveries.

user39393821 day ago
Kagi has a cool app called Small Web around this
ceuk1 day ago
As someone who is also into <thing> but maybe not other <thing>, it's really great to sometimes delve into the deep world of <thing> for an hour or so to broaden ones perspective and get a general feel for what other people choose to spend their consciousness budget on.

Definitely one of the better sides of the information age is how easy this is now.

kkukshtel1 day ago
I have had a lot of things just kind of _happen_ by virtue of writing blogs and publishing software. These things all have very strange second lives that exist beyond your own initial conception of them that is consistently surprising.
MrVandemar1 day ago
In other words: "A blog post is a very long and complex search query to find fascinating people and make them route interesting stuff to your inbox" [1]

[1] https://www.henrikkarlsson.xyz/p/search-query

alexpotato1 day ago
I forget who said this but very similar idea:

"Writing online is a way to show people the 'wrinkles' of your brain. If you write enough, people can see how closely your winkles match their wrinkles. If the wrinkles match closely enough, you start to get followers who like the way you think. Those people can become friends and that leads to future life opportunities and experiences."

schlauerfox2 days ago
One thing to note, is that the library of congress has the power to create the exceptions to the DMCA. The EFF lobbies for expansion of the exact powers the article is advocating for. https://www.eff.org/issues/dmca-rulemaking
javcasas2 days ago
Kinda related, but I hate how the big studios go after old videogames and try to take them down. It looks like, in the future, this era will be called the "digital dark ages", not because all the stuff got lost to bitrot, but because all the stuff became illegal to own so that the studios could sell the new stuff again and again.
tombert2 days ago
The home-computer world is especially interesting for old games. If something made it to a Nintendo or Sega console, it's probably very well-preserved, but I'd be surprised if even 1% of all video games made were released on consoles.

There's an unfathomable number of games that were released on the Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari ST, and most famously DOS that were made by one or two people, self-published, and have now completely fallen into obscurity to a point where it's not 100% clear who owns the copyright and who to give money even if you wanted to, which has led to the "probably-illegal-but-not-really-enforced" term of "Abandonware".

I honestly kind of think that Abandonware should be codified into law in the same way that trademarks are; if you're not actively giving me a legitimate way to buy your game then I don't think it should be illegal for me to get it illegitimately.

zanderwohl1 day ago
There's a book of BASIC software I have. I'd like to publish the programs online. I've tried to contact the author, but he's dead. I tried to contact the publisher, but they were acquired. I tried to contact the acquiring publisher, but they went out of business 20 years ago. The trail is cold there, and I imagine it's nearly impossible to figure out who owns the rights now.
FlowingRiver2 days ago
There are projects like eXoDOS that are attempting to provide a complete DOS archive. They are currently at version 6 that weighs in at just under 700GB. But they seem to be finding new stuff all the time, thus the versioning of the archive.
jasonwatkinspdx2 days ago
I played a bunch of random shareware games on our family's Apple IIgs and I'd love to find some of those again, but I was so young I can't really remember much other than like some visual images and vibes.
OroPla1 day ago
Nevermind the Commodore etc. who are preserved as abandonware. Remember FLASH games? They are mostly gone already. Even if you still have a copy, they can't be run anymore. There were some efforts made, but last I checked plenty of FLASH games still didn't work flawlessly.
pjerem1 day ago
> There's an unfathomable number of games that were released on the Commodore 64, Amiga, Atari ST, and most famously DOS that were made by one or two people, self-published, and have now completely fallen into obscurity to a point where it's not 100% clear who owns the copyright and who to give money even if you wanted to, which has led to the "probably-illegal-but-not-really-enforced" term of "Abandonware".

Mostly unrelated but if you are looking for this "effervescence" in modern times, don't hesitate to take a look at Pico8 games and Ich.io.

On Pico 8, everything is free (except the one time pico 8 licence).

On Itch.io I bought a ridiculous 400 games pack for a few dollars a few years back.

You have to dig a little but I found more gems in both those libraries than I expected.

giancarlostoro2 days ago
Not just that, but some fair use youtube channels like Digging the Greats:

https://www.youtube.com/@diggingthegreats/videos

He intentionally samples less than 5 seconds iirc, and they still ding him, take all profits from the video, which took many many hours to create, and he cannot afford a lawsuit. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Telaneo2 days ago
Wait til you hear it's (or at least was) possible to get dinged for 0.00 seconds.[1] That particular issue's probably solved by now, since Youtube requires claims to include a time stamp showing where the problem clip is. Nevermind the fact that wasn't a requirement to begin with. No wonder the corps ding every creator out there. It's free money with no downside to them. Nevermind the fact they're actively destroying culture.

[1] https://youtu.be/VvFGumd_esg?&t=685

the_af2 days ago
Agreed, and it was already like this in the 2000's (when I got involved in the abandonware scene). I remember the owner of Home of the Underdogs getting constantly in battles with takedown notices for games she only intended to preserve. Not piracy in the sense of "losing tons of money", nobody but enthusiasts cared about these games anymore.
mahboi2 days ago
The old video games aren't illegal to own.
javcasas2 days ago
They may be illegal to run if they are made to depend on servers, even for single player, and those servers are taken offline.

On top of the shenanigans we have seen recently about revoking paid licenses to watch movies.

karel-3d1 day ago
I hate how they are stopping the physical releases.

I guess I do understand it from the business perspective - I never buy a physical release myself - but ... 20 years later, it will be impossible to get these games.

someonebaggy1 day ago
Some time in the next 20 years, pirates will be able to download the game from the e-shop server and create a fake e-shop server where everything is free.
dewey2 days ago
> When I came to work for Arrow, I was bringing a lot of awareness of the methods of fan preservationists on the torrent sites

Very smooth way of using your torrenting skills on your CV.

sedawkgrep2 days ago
I know this is the easy take, but there really are people who are passionate about preservation beyond just acquiring things for their own use.

I'm not one of those people. :D But I do know one; he's a professional librarian.

MomsAVoxell2 days ago
I am am an amateur recordist, I absolutely love to bootleg concerts and gigs and things, as in: make my own recordings of live music and so on. I have shared everything in the appropriate places, also. I believe it is an essential artistic expression: to record the nature of the world around you for the future.

So, I do it a bit.

I think this ethos can be applied in many ways and with different media; preservationism is a high value objective. The future needs it, kinda.

Forgeties792 days ago
This is true but people also use it as a magic shield to (needlessly IMO) justify their piracy, even though they are 1) only downloading things they happen to like and 2) don’t even follow a basic 3-2-1 backup protocol, let alone anything remotely resembling SOP for preservation.

I bet not even 1 in 1000 people pirating are doing it primarily as a preservation exercise.

dewey2 days ago
Yep, definitely! I know of instances where professional archives and libraries work with specialized torrent sites to archive content directly and these days that's sometimes necessary with how content is locked down, games are dependent on a server or DRM schemes don't make archiving easy.

You frequently hear of cases where the last remaining official copy got lost and only due to some fan service (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49694382) data could be recovered.

Waterluvian2 days ago
I’m absolutely obsessed with it. For me it’s driven purely from childhood nostalgia. In particular, Macintosh games. I want, and want others to have that warm excitement of nostalgia when they re-discover something forgotten.
thewizzardofnl2 days ago
"“To me, it [the original Star Wars trilogy] doesn’t really exist anymore. It’s like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I’m sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it.” - George Lucas, 2004

It is insane how much George Lucas has edited the original Star Wars trilogy. I think no movies have had more edits over time than Star Wars.

mrandish2 days ago
> It’s like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I’m sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it.” - George Lucas, 2004

I don't begrudge any director the freedom to go back and revise their work to more perfectly realize their creative vision. The problem is when they try to erase the original released version of an historically significant film by making it completely unavailable. George had no issue accepting the accolades and billions of dollars from the original trilogy. It's fine to later release his 'perfect vision' but in today's digital media era, there's zero reason or justification to make the originals unavailable. Be proud of what your younger self made and let fans decide which they version they want to watch.

I'm not just being post-hoc selective here. I think original theatrical releases of classics should remain available even in cases like Blade Runner where the OG theatrical release is a widely-hated, critically panned abomination made by a clueless executive producer without the involvement of the director, writer or main star and released over their strong objections. It is objectively awful and by far the worst release of the film - but I still believe even that miserable train wreck should remain available forever (perhaps with appropriate warning labels :-), even if only as a cautionary tale to future clueless executive producers).

x______________2 days ago
There are 58 mentions about Han in this thread but none of them state that Han shot first! [0]

0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_shot_first

the_af2 days ago
Since you brought up Blade Runner (and I agree with all your points, by the way) I'm deeply offended by how the Final Cut decided to add all these wonderful improvements yet Ridley Scott agreed to completely mess up the color grading. What's up with the new greenish tint? Did he think it would make Blade Runner look more modern or what?

Fortunately, we can still watch the Director's Cut. It's a shame, too, because the Final Cut has a lot of improvements otherwise (e.g. fixing Zhora's face is a major one).

kulahan2 days ago
This opinion rubs me the wrong way. I don't think you meant it like this, but it really feels like when someone creates something, they now have some obligation to society, should society deem it good enough.

In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing to support this idea. If I make something, I can change it however I want, as many times as I want, and throw away old copies - even if you really really liked those old copies. It's my art, not yours.

Maybe one could make the argument that George Lucas is not the only artist here, and I'd agree with that, but to imply that society is owed something that someone created of their own volition, simply because society happens to like it, feels wrong. He can change it however he wants until the day he dies, as far as I'm concerned.

After that day, I think the argument changes.

alexpotato2 days ago
One of my favorite trivia items about A New Hope:

- there was a children's book (that my family had) that accompanied the movie

- there is a scene in the book where Biggs comes back to talk to Luke

- this didn't make any sense to me as a child b/c that scene isn't in the movie

- I realized years later that they cut the scene but AFTER the book was printed.

The scene in question is here btw: https://youtu.be/O7J_IZ9agRI?t=318

mcv2 days ago
I also remembered that scene and the early Jabba the Hutt scene from the novelisation. And because I knew them from the book, I initially loved it when the Special Editions added them back. Until I realised they don't really work. Well, Biggs does, but Jabba becomes much less terrifying from having Han talk to him like that and even walking over his tail. Jabba being just a feared name works so much better.
HanClinto2 days ago
Yes!! I remember reading this book at the library as a kid, and for years afterwards I wondered if I had just hallucinated the whole thing.

I think it's a really important scene, and I'm sad that it was cut from the movie.

Side note: the (extremely well-done) Star Wars Radio Drama [0] included a great many expanded scenes on Tattoine (with quite a bit of expansoin on Tosche Station), and I think those scenes (which include the aforementioned scene with Biggs) really add to the richness and flavor of the setting.

If you're a fan of Star Wars and haven't yet listened to the radio drama, I highly recommend it!

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-29uKdckL4

throwaway2194502 days ago
There was also Luke looking up at the space battle and "Treadwell" the droid, which would have played just before all of the Biggs scenes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDPZfPe5F-w (a cleaner version is shown in How Star Wars was saved in the edit)
kurthr2 days ago
There was also a comic book that came out before the movie.

In the scene where the sand people shoot R2D2, it looked like the other way around so it was quite confusing to see them captured in the next frame. Who knew the little guy didn't have a blaster?

floydnoel2 days ago
that scene is in the radio drama version as well (along with many others that aren't in the movie)
jasonwatkinspdx2 days ago
Another part of the story a lot of people don't know is apparently Lucas's cut of the original Star Wars was horrible, so his wife came in and redid everything and that's the version that went to theaters. And she was the editor on the remaining two of the original trilogy as well.

I think it's pretty clear to everyone now that when Lucas is flying solo his final output is... not great. He obviously imagined a universe a lot of people find compelling, but wasn't always the best person to realize the vision of that universe.

settsu2 days ago
I know it's a meme at this point, but being an "idea person" is legitimately a thing. But there is also being self-aware enough to recognize what your strengths are and when you should call in reinforcements, as it were, to fill in where there's a need. Seems there's a spectrum where people fall in how readily they will recognize this and Lucas falls more towards the reluctant side perhaps.
chungy2 days ago
On a similar vein, Gene Roddenberry was pretty similar with Star Trek. He had a pretty big universe imagined, got the scaffolding in for it, but all the best works under the name of Star Trek were made by other people. Anything Gene Roddenberry was directly involved in as a script writer (see: many episodes of the original and first two seasons of The Next Generation) are generally the weakest and worst parts of Star Trek.
magarnicle2 days ago
One huge addition that she created entirely in the edit is the "ticking clock" during the final battle. Originally there was no count down to the Death Star destroying the base. Imagine how much tension would be lost without that.

https://www.rogerebert.com/tributes/the-woman-who-saved-star...

leoc2 days ago
That version of events has been disputed: https://youtube.com/watch?v=olqVGz6mOVE .
mrandish2 days ago
> I think it's pretty clear to everyone now that when Lucas is flying solo his final output is... not great.

The evidence is pretty compelling that George had a lot of great ideas as well as some not-so-great ideas and his own ability to distinguish between the two was... less than ideal. Thus his best work was from those times he collaborated closely with talented people who had significant input and there was a strong, empowered curator. Positive examples include the great results on Star Wars, the fact that Empire is so good and his work on Raiders with Spielberg. A clear negative example is Phantom Menace where George was in absolute control.

A lot of fantastically talented creators simply shouldn't have unchecked 'final cut' over their own output. It's really nothing to be ashamed of, and frankly, is more common than not.

naet2 days ago
I have the original trilogy's original version on VHS still, and just recently watched them. I would say they hold up very well and weren't really in need of any post release changes or updates. The effects look great today compared to some other movies that actually came out later, probably because Star Wars used more practical effects vs some early Sci-Fi CGI that ended up not aging as well.

The changes are mostly just window dressings around the original footage, like extra CGI in transition scenes. They don't really change much of the core movie experience. It does end up causing some funny side effects though. Like when the main characters move from one place to another you'll see a splashy dinosaur like creature or fancy robot, but once they actually arrive in the scene the background falls back to the original with a lot less of that added CGI action.

jurip1 day ago
Whenever discussion about Lucas and his taste comes up, I remember this story in https://gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/04/04/fall-... about him being asked for a name for a new character, and him suggesting Darth Icky or Darth Insanius.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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