Are you steering towards AI burnout? Afraid of loosing your job to someone with little programming skills, no aspirations to quality, and a huge Claude account? Disappointed about the code quality in your projects, or…

348 points•signa11•5 days ago•345 comments•

345 comments

beej714 days ago
One thing to keep in mind is that anytime you punt to the LLM (or anybody) for anything, that skill is going to atrophy.

I've seen this happen to myself where suddenly I had trouble planning out the architecture for a very small project. It should have been obvious to me, and I knew that. So it was disconcerting to not be able to suddenly have the answer appear in front of me like it normally would. I thought maybe I would go to Claude and help get some ideas.

But then I stopped myself. I knew I should be able to do this! So I got out a piece of paper and I scribbled ideas until the dam burst and suddenly the entire design was obvious, like it should have been in the first place. It took about 5 minutes.

But those were an alarming 5 minutes. It was like I'd gone blind to the solution.

And I realized that when I asked Claude for a bunch of ideas and then I selected the best one based on my experience, I was exercising that exact skill. I wasn't exercising the skill of coming up with the solution from scratch.

Lots of times we're happy letting particular skills atrophy. Maybe we don't like exercising them and we just don't want to do that anymore. And I think that's valid.

Just be careful how you use it.

pton_xd4 days ago
5 minutes... what about 5 hours, or 5 days? Imagine spending 5 hours with a pen and paper sketching solutions. Unthinkable to spend that amount of time "unproductively" today. I feel like there's just so much pressure to make visible progress, and with these tools available it's getting harder to convince yourself to take the time to think.
vconnor4 days ago
It is unfathomable to me that spending 5 hours of hard mental work is deemed ‘unthinkable’ and ‘unproductive time’

I might be of the old “hammock driven development” school, but I wonder if people have any idea of what productivity and creativity consists of, how it works and how to promote a state of flow and deep work. Hint: it’s not about context switching between 15 different agents per minute.

I keep wondering if I am defending my experience in this field against the deep hubris of 19 year olds that are still figuring it all out (programming but also system design and how to tackle hard problems efficiently)

gspr4 days ago
Absolutely not unthinkable! We're paid for exactly that in research, for example.

It's terrifying to hear that 5 hours of focused thinking is considered crazy. I can understand a budget battle if it's 5 months, but 5 hours?! Everyone, in every profession (or none), would be better off mentally if they "wasted" 5 hours thinking about something every now and then!

kelnos4 days ago
This is why I love working on open source (not as a part of a job) so much. No one is going to be upset with me that I took a week instead of a few hours to implement something. No one is going to pressure me to use an LLM to work faster.

On one hand I'm really afraid that in a few years, developers won't actually know how to develop software anymore, and the LLMs won't actually get good enough to make up the gap.

On the other hand, if that does come to pass, my still-sharp skills will be in even higher demand than they were pre-LLMs.

GPerson2 days ago
I’m just gonna take an early exit if the world becomes a place where thinking for 5 hours is some kind of sin.
hirvi744 days ago
All I read about if productivity, but where are all the products? I keep reading about a lot of work, and I still see little to show for it. Why is the vast majority of software still utter shit (and getting worse)?

I think our entire field would benefit from us taking the time to think a bit more. I have no opposition to LLM usage either.

gramie4 days ago
> And I realized that when I asked Claude for a bunch of ideas and then I selected the best one based on my experience, I was exercising that exact skill. I wasn't exercising the skill of coming up with the solution from scratch.

Makes me think of Japan, where young people learn to recognize kanji. They type the sound of a word into a computer, then choose the appropriate one.

When they have to write by hand, they often draw a blank (not only children, I had a university professor I knew temporarily forget the character for "police").

An article from 2012 said that 66% of Japanese surveyed believed that they were losing the ability to write kanji.

globular-toast4 days ago
Before LLMs I noticed I would never rethink a problem if I thought a solution could already be recalled from somewhere else. That might have been a book, a colleague, or some work I've done in the past. Only when I really needed to would I actually think and come up with something.

Now it seems like the need to think is rapidly going away. More and more I realise I'm not actually needing to think about anything. I'm not worried so much about losing my ability to program as I am about losing my ability to think. Programming without thinking is the worst kind of grunt work. I wanted more time to think and less time typing, but it's just far too tempting to not bother thinking either.

dylanhouli4 days ago
This is why I like to come up with my own solution(s) for a problem first, and then ask AI what it recommends to see if we match up. Makes it a fun exercise, and usually ends up helping creating one ideal, combined idea.
seanmcdirmid4 days ago
It’s not just that, punting something to an LLM is its own skill that will push out the other skills you were using to do everything on your own. It’s like going from an IC to a tech lead manager, you go from doing things on your own to figuring out how to get a team (of agents) to do it instead.
chicken-stew4 days ago
Not so long ago I read something on HN which resonated with me: we’re moving into the era that is comparable to car mechanics enthusiasts. You have a previous generation of cars where people just enjoy working on with hand tools, and there’s modern cars where people like to tune with software patches.

From the very start of llms I’ve had nothing but bad experiences with code that was generated for me. Either it’s buggy, it works but I end up losing an evening on some obscure bug, or it’s full of red flags.

My latest hobby project is just in a text editor with markup and that’s it. I’m also done with the augmented assistance in the IDE. I google things I forgot. I constantly read these amazing stories of people vibe-coding some firmware/driver that just works, and honestly I’m starting to question whether I’m reading the posts of some promotional bot.

kraig9114 days ago
For me it's just making stuff for my family and kids and seeing if it sticks. LLM's have given me a way to easily get something off the ground whereas it used to be a few months now is a few evenings.

I've made a wealth of cute things for me and my kids to do (shameless self promotion) https://drawesome.art - multiple people drawing/painting/coloring on the same canvas my kids love this. The architecture took forever for me to get write. Basically server side authoritative state of pixels and blending between two points. How to realistically manage and store it. https://www.catchmemeow.com - random where's waldo-esque game where you find a cat or dog wearing a silly hat I made this for my daughter and me to help the shelter she wants to volunteer at. https://www.cluestep.com - this one is weird I've actually tried to productize it but i made this because I had the HARDEST time helping my oldest with her calculus/algebra II homework. Basically I constantly made her cry. I just wish I could make it not look so "Made with AI"

I think LLM's analogy are prefab with nailguns did for carpentry. It's very complicated to prompt it (at least for me) to try and make it do something novel and net new. It always falls back on node/typescript/fastAPI/python. It's not terrible at using more obscure languages but I have the hardest time describing what I want or thinking without starting something more by hand and then letting it take the wheel and seeing where it drives me.

I should mention too at work I'm practically forced, measured even on the amount of AI I use. The expectation feels like use AI for any and everything. So i'm more worried one day I'll be laid off once I'm found to hit the 'enter' key much anymore. Anyways for me I'd say embrace it, use it and you'll find your output is much higher with the caveat that when a bug occurs it's incredibly hard sometimes to fix if it's with LLM generated code.

lelanthran4 days ago
> this one is weird I've actually tried to productize it but i made this because I had the HARDEST time helping my oldest with her calculus/algebra II homework.

I feel somewhat qualified to opine on how humans learn because I've successfully taught my 2x boys[1].

Teaching is difficult. It requires a lot of patience and understanding, and a working mental model of the human brain.

If you have tried, and failed, teaching calculus to your kid, then maybe you don't have a good model of how human brains work.

TBH, it doesn't even have to be correct, it just needs to work; celestial navigation had the wrong model for centuries, but ships still got to where they were going (mostly).

I'm finding that developers claiming to have learned something have often very superficially learned it. If they were tested on what they learned, they'd fail, just like the HS trig students who read the textbook and did no problems fail when they hit the exam.

--------------------------

[1] My youngest, at grade-1, reads at a grade 3 level and can do things like multiple 27 by 4 in his head. That is a result of a structured and scheduled 10m lesson per day since he was 3.5 My oldest was getting 5% in trig/geometry in grade 11 (long story behind that one), and became solidly mid-70% after my tuition.

sellmesoap4 days ago
It just dawned on me that LLM use is a lot more measurable then "the rockstar engineer spent a week bouncing their favorite nerf ball off the wall all week and then the solution came to them" and the business side always loves to measure productivity metrics etc. As someone who's worked for mom and pop and big corporate the stats spook me, or if they're available to the worker I find them more distracting and encourage gaming the stats then being productive or humane to your co-workers.
d73 days ago
I feel the same way. Mostly with tools for people though. How do you bring people closer in the age of social media and ai. I keep seeing things like https://www.wishlst.com and https://journalee.com and trying to brainstorm things that would be helpful to humans regardless of tech.
cmdrk4 days ago
I'm hardly AI-pilled but these are lovely parent/child apps. Kudos
godelski4 days ago

  > You have a previous generation of cars where people just enjoy working on with hand tools, and there’s modern cars where people like to tune with software patches.
I think this is a prettier picture than reality suggests, it's overly simplified and a statement people like because it's a variant of "everything is the same"

I think the analogy with cars is apt, but we should also like at what happened with cars. People are being locked out of fixing them, even for simple jobs that would usually be task that introduces someone to the hobby or career. Fixes like changing your oil or brakes. Remember that the Ford CEO said that cars are "too dangerous" to fix. Probably connected with the other thing they talk about... a $100 bn repair industry that they want a bigger piece of. There's an easy way to do that, John Deer and Apple have clearly shown that it's not hard, even when we get the right to repair. Is it any wonder far fewer people work on their cars these days? Ask the people with electric vehicles... there are people out there, just as there always will be, not the numbers do matter

Weirdly, I think LLMs would be much more useful if everything was open source. No need to hack your microwave to give it a firmware update to the door doesn't lock, just patch. More training for the LLMs and turns what would be a specialized task into one anyone can do if they point the LLM at the code. Plus, people submit patches to the source code, getting companies free work. There is a way everyone can win in this. Sometimes (often) being greedy prevents you from getting a bigger fill

xgb84j4 days ago
It might be that you're just working on projects where LLMs don't provide much benefit.

The second thing is that using LLMs in a useful way is a skill in itself.

i_love_retros4 days ago
> The second thing is that using LLMs in a useful way is a skill in itself.

I have to disagree here. People who are really into agentic coding like to say/believe this, but come on, it's not rocket science! You literally ask the agent to do something and it does it, that's it. As long as you use a recent model it will do it really well regardless of how fancy your prompt is. There's no moat here, anyone can do it. Your job will be gone and so will mine.

bsoles3 days ago
> The second thing is that using LLMs in a useful way is a skill in itself.

Not really. I don't even bother writing complete sentences as my prompts anymore. Once the LLM has enough context on my current issue, even incomplete sentences or phrases result in the same outcome quality in LLM's responses.

qudat4 days ago
I just recently replaced LSP with ctags. I am loving it. I plan to write a post about it but I’m leaning heavily into grep and search tools to navigate code. I do miss some autocomplete and auto import features but other than that I can actually navigate through code better with ctags instead of go to definition.

For linting style errors I’m using entr in a separate terminal which is also awesome.

doyougnu4 days ago
Please write this up! I’ve had similar ideas but haven’t tried going back to ctags yet. I’d love to read about your experience.
scrapcode4 days ago
I'm going to get left behind as a developer I guess because I still haven't seen output in my niche that's done well enough to just let it go and develop entire projects. I essentially just still talk to it like it's a rockstar dev and it gives me good suggestions and technical talking points on why one paradigm might be better than another.
TSiege4 days ago
All pros and cons of LLM coding aside, something has really shifted for me with the latest agentic coding. I’ve found my motivation to work slowly slipping away. No matter what role I had I always found something to keep me engaged with the job. Now though there’s no motivation. Every week it feels like my skills, talents, even ideas themselves are less and less relevant. I’m just meat shuffling data and permissions between bots
amelius4 days ago
Yes. In a few years we all have shrimp-brains compared to AI.

The only thing to be proud of will be that we are genetically close to Sam Altman, the Creator of AI and über-shrimp.

maomao53 days ago
Never beating the cult allegations. Have you tried offering to suck his dick? He's into that sort of thing.
humlex5 days ago
I recently (2 days ago) noticed i enjoy it a lot more if i use a super fast model with low reasoning (gpt 6 luna low effort + fast mode). That way, i can still have hands on the entire time and dont have to wait around for 20minutes for it to finish up and have made a bunch of decisions without me.

Also, LLMs are first and foremost excellent at reading ultra fast. Makes it excellent for summarizing and re-representing modules of your code

coffeefirst5 days ago
Oh yeah. I discovered this back in February. Faster and cheaper is better, because faster means you can focus.

Frenetic multitasking is for suckers.

bunderbunder4 days ago
I’ve also found that fast cheap models are more sustainable because they make it easier to keep technical debt under control. Partially because I’m keeping sustained attention in one place. And partially because small fast models with low reasoning don’t seem to love technical debt either and will (unintentionally) start to give you negative feedback signals when you’re letting things get messy.
r_lee4 days ago
I've had bad experiences with gpt 6 luna, but 5.6 luna worked real nicely with e.g React, you can do a back n forth and it'll work like a teammate vs just a "done!" where you then have to clean everything up afterwards
nibbleyou4 days ago
Do you use luna to plan as well, or is it just code? I am interesting in understanding the process you follow.

My workflow is the most common one - use something like Opus to help create a spec document (I decide the specs and then get the LLM to ask me questions to harden it), then generate a plan, and then implement. I use Opus the whole time. Sonnet sometimes if it is a simple task.

Kiro4 days ago
Yeah, I've come to this realization as well. It's like the inverse of that classic interruption comic. The waiting makes me lose the context.
badestrand5 days ago
That's a great idea, I will try that too. The LLMs are so capable, but the slowness annoys me. I always end up working on a few things at once and always doing rounds of reading its output, giving new orders, and going back to Reddit/HN/YouTube while it's doing its thing for the next 5 minutes.
DonaldFisk5 days ago
I've avoided using LLMs. You might not have the option of doing this in paid employment, but you certainly can in your spare time, and if you don't you'll gradually lose the ability to think in a programming language. This applies similarly to any other cognitive skill too: writing music or playing a musical instrument, speaking and reading a foreign language, doing cryptic crosswords, playing chess or go, etc. You wouldn't stop playing chess just because computers are now much better at it. The point is learn, understand, and do those things yourself.

Here's my advice, based on what I have done: implement a programming language yourself, from scratch, without using an LLM, and then program in that. Don't release your implementation, or any code you've written in it.

Most (almost all) of my programming at home has been done in a Lisp dialect I designed and wrote myself, which is superficially similar to Common Lisp, but with subtle differences, including some deficiencies that I have to work around. And in my Lisp dialect, I implemented a visual dataflow language. Code samples are on my web site, but they're PNG images, so are safe from LLMs (I think). The language was designed to run on MIMD hardware, which doesn't exist in the real world. I've also implemented a Prolog which doesn't use Edinburgh syntax, which I use for type checking, and for parsing a controlled English implementation. So the temptation, and also the option, of using an LLM was never there.

In the course of doing all this, I've learned a lot along the way, which I wouldn't have if I'd used an LLM.

iLemming4 days ago
> you'll gradually lose the ability to think in a programming language

So be it. It's fine. It will be fine. At some point I knew assembly well enough; I read hex fluently and confidently changed things directly in some random-looking files. This skill sometimes comes in handy (even today) when reading network packets. How many people today need to really understand offsets, field sizes and padding, so shit like: "bytes 12-13 are the EtherType" feels natural? What percentage of programmers actively creating software need to know how to read, say, exploit and malware traffic?

Some may say: "well, this is enormously important", but the reality is, "no, it's fucking not". For like 95% of programmers, it isn't.

And the number of programming languages I had to learn and then forget later... The point is - you don't need to be "thinking in a programming language". You just need to be thinking, period. Whatever language it will be tomorrow, it really doesn't matter. Cuneiform tablets with math still hold the math even though nobody in the world does any math in cuneiform anymore.

Technology has always been moving from lower abstractions to higher ones, and that's a normal cycle. Why is it so inconceivable to think that most of the software developers of tomorrow would have no idea how to "think" in Python, C++, Java, or Clojure? Does every car mechanic need to be able to explain the principles of a combustion engine?

christophilus3 days ago
> Does every car mechanic need to be able to explain the principles of a combustion engine?

Probably. I’d certainly not want to use a mechanic who doesn’t understand the combustion engine, or who is incapable of giving at least a high-level overview of it.

DonaldFisk3 days ago
Not sure that's right in general. Steam trains -> electric trains, ICE cars -> electric cars, thermionic valves -> transistors, copper wire -> optical fibre, incandescent bulbs -> LEDs, CRT televisions -> digital televisions, film cameras -> digital cameras. Same sort of thing with more efficient technology.

For software, we've gone from machine code to high level languages, but were still writing algorithms, which is the important thing as you still use your brain for that. Until vibe coding came along.

derpyzza5 days ago
this is awesome, but also code samples being in PNG images does not make them safe from LLMs anymore unfortunately, LLMs are really good at reading text from images now
DonaldFisk5 days ago
Thanks. The code (here: https://fmjlang.co.uk/fmj/tutorials/TOC.html) isn't text, it's directed graphs.
sneurlax4 days ago
If you've "avoided using LLMs", how do you know "you'll gradually lose the ability to think in a programming language"?

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