94 points•Anon84•6 days ago•122 comments•

122 comments

throw9316666666 days ago
Sorry for writing from a throwaway account because there's still a lot of stigma to this, while I think it's a pretty average experience.

I had sex therapy to be able to understand where my fantasy ends, and where the real world starts, and how people in the real world aren't there to play the roles my fantasies give them.

It sounds obvious when I say it like this but there are many men like me, who didn't grow up emotionally, and having difficulty accepting the agency of others. Women had to be interested in me so that I could feel validated. I also had never stopped and asked myself "does she really want this or am I trying to manipulate her?".

You also see the same pattern with men who think it's their right to find a female partner and they feel wronged by the society when this doesn't automatically happen.

Try getting some help, fellow men. It takes a lot of weight from your shoulders and you become much less likely to end up getting on such lists.

em-bee4 days ago
Women had to be interested in me so that I could feel validated

i don't quite get the meaning of this in the context of accepting agency of others. because it works both ways. either it means you assume that they are interested in you to validate yourself, or it means you need see/experience them actively showing interest in order to validate your approach.

likewise with agency, i can assume someone has agency, which is actually bad because it leads to thinking: if they didn't want this they would have used their agency to stop it. or i can ask myself whether there might be something that could prevent this person from using their agency.

a problem is also that when approaching someone you know what you want, and what you want could be something harmless. but the approached person doesn't know that if they don't know you well enough already.

em-bee4 days ago
i forgot to add that i am just talking about general definitions and my own feelings, not your personal specifics. feel free to respond as you feel comfortable
thatsabadlook6 days ago
This is terrifying but I am glad people like this are self aware enough to get help. Kudos.. I think?
thinkingtoilet6 days ago
Thanks for sharing. And well done admitting you need help and getting it.
davidguetta6 days ago
are we talking about weird fantasies / bdsm or just "having a partner" here
throw9316666666 days ago
It doesn't matter. It really doesn't, but I'm only equipped to deal with my own stuff, I can't explain the "why" to others even if I wanted to.
Havoc6 days ago
Sad that they feel this is necessary.

Also feels like something that could be life ruining if someone innocent finds themselves on the list by mistake/fluke. This is presumably crowdsourced which is not bulletproof

pjc506 days ago
There will of course be a secret mirror blacklist: anyone who does report sexual assault to the authorities will find it much harder to get a job and impossible to access the inner circle.

(Famously, Weinstein did this to actresses)

RickJWagner5 days ago
Weinstein is doubly bad. At the same time he was raping starlets and blacklisting victims, he cultivated a ‘woman friendly’ public image, famously bankrolling Hillary Clinton’s campaign and acting as an industry mentor to Obamas daughter.
watwut6 days ago
Epstein sponsored lawsuits against women who accused others of sexual assaults.

And also based on the emails, because convinced made Epstein more respected in his circles.

ElProlactin6 days ago
> Also feels like something that could be life ruining if someone innocent finds themselves on the list by mistake/fluke.

Not as likely as you think. The reason a list like this feels necessary to many (presumably mostly) women is that in SV culture there's a presumption that these sorts of claims are almost always baseless. That these women engaged in consensual activities and either regretted it after the fact or were trying to make a buck.

dude2507116 days ago
Women get bitten by the vagueness of their own rules, since they want to keep all options open.

If it was a strict 'no workplace dating ever' it would have been easier for everyone.

hollerith5 days ago
Your comment implies that it is impossible (or at least so unlikely as to be not worth thinking about) for someone or someones to intentionally put an innocent person on the list.

Please don't assume that.

add-sub-mul-div6 days ago
Interesting that every instance of sexual assault is preemptively doubted by default, whereas that's not a primary part of the conversation for accusations of other crimes like arson, theft, embezzlement, etc. False accusations of any crime could hurt the accused, that's more or less an unavoidable tautology of the legal system. There's just one kind of crime where public conversation obsesses about that, though.
cthalupa6 days ago
Yes, all false accusations are bad.

But sexual assault is the one area that is almost always taking two parties at their word, and very very frequently, the only court is the court of public opinion. That makes it rife for abuse in both directions - people doing it believing they'll get away with it because it comes down to their word vs. someone else's if it ever even comes out, since so few people go to the police, and people know they can lob an accusation out there and do a lot of damage without having to prove anything.

I think the former happens far far more than the latter, but I'm also not going to wonder why people discuss the latter - it's real, and it happens. People discuss getting attacked by sharks whenever sharks come up, too, even though that's almost certainly not going to be something they need to worry about, either.

This sort of list is exactly the sort of place where those false accusations can be really easily inserted with minimal vetting. I'd also bet it is an almost entirely accurate list.

All these things can be true at once.

themaninthedark6 days ago
Shouldn't it be a good thing that we are presuming someone innocent rather than guilty?

Interestingly I have seen the opposite where if a guy is accused, it is automatically assumed he is guilty. Especially with sports players, which lead to the Duke Lacrosse false accusations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_rape_hoax

ecshafer6 days ago
We have this concept in the western world of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. Something like a sexual assault accusation is typically taken extremely seriously (As it should), but this can lead it to being weaponized. Maybe a manager who is a rival for a position you covet, well a sexual assault accusation may make them conveniently go away.
pretzellogician6 days ago
Are you aware of privately-circulated lists of embezzlement accusations? I believe the reaction would be similar.
KaiserPro6 days ago
Its a societal thing.

Embezzling is universally bad, and can be proven with "objects" ie transaction and contracts and the like.

the pernicious problem with sexual assault is that first you need to prove the assault happened, which is hard, because its often in private with no witnesses.

Second you have to prove consent.

worse consent can be withdrawn, especially if things go too far or violent. so it might appear to witnesses that it look ok when they saw them.

Finally the elephant in the room. There is a taboo around non straight male sexuality which varies by region. Its very easy to paint the cliamant as someone with loose sexual morals, filled with guilt/loathing lashing out to smear an innocent party.

The problem for the victims is that agreeing to sex is vaguely taboo for non-straight men to do. Therefore they are at fault.

gwbas1c6 days ago
I think the question is: Does this list work better in secret, where the perpetrators don't know they're on the list; or does it work better in public, where the general public learns that these kinds of problems continue to happen?
enoint6 days ago
The temptation will be to pressure people on a secret list with public disclosure. And there’s a grey zone, too. Imagine a messy divorce, in which one person’s name is conveniently found on a list that’s time stamped during some period of contended infidelity. I think that’s how these are supposed to work.
pjc506 days ago
The "missing stair" list exists in a lot of communities. The problem is that because it's not written down it relies on new women joining the scene being quietly taken aside and told who they should never be alone with, and sometimes the message isn't delivered in time.
bix66 days ago
Ok can we see the list? And then prosecute the people? Or it’s a secret for some reason?
method_capital6 days ago
Yeah, that's how this stuff should work. Accusations published then publicly crucify the "guilty". Who cares if any of this is accurate, right?
formvoltron6 days ago
How about a borderline personality disorder false accusations list?

Surprised nobody else brings this up, but then again I lived to 49 before I figured out what BPD was.

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