DAWO.community, working together on a digitally autonomous workplace for the Dutch government.

1018 points•fjfaase•6 days ago•581 comments•

581 comments

askonomm6 days ago
Any move away from the abusive big tech that exists in USA is a good move in my book. Microsoft just recently made a new patent where they will monitor you via camera and microphone to block your program/game to show you ads, and per ads viewed, you then earn credit to be able to use your program/game. It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.
maxbaines5 days ago
The patent does not include monitoring using a camera or microphone. https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...
GrantMoyer5 days ago
I'm not familiar with patent legalese, but from my layman skimming of the patent application, I think you're right.

Instead, the patent would cover running object detection/classification ML models — optionally on remote servers — on screen and audio output and user input of specific applications (particularly videogames), without requiring cooperation from the application, to target ads based on what's happening in the application and to decide when to interrupt the application with an ad.

To hazard a guess: Microsoft or part of Microsoft is planning to include pervasive targeted advertising in the next Xbox console OS, including during gameplay of any game.

detourdog5 days ago
I’m experience windows 11 which is my first windows experience since maybe NT 2 or 4.

I can tell it’s still windows but I’m shocked how many things I have to turn off to stop live data from the internet appearing in my GUI. Also my profile settings, saved passwords, and other data seems to reset unexpectedly cause some or all settings to disappear. Finding stored passwords is also surprisingly difficult or impossible depending on I don’t know what.

Adding such overt spying to this mess of an OS achieves a new low in user experience.

unfocso5 days ago
I love the absolute fever dream that is looking at the pictures of patents. The out of context fig 9 is amazing
askonomm5 days ago
Yes you're right, that's my bad. I interpreted the "audiovisual" wrong. They are actually just monitoring the screen and system audio.
Thanemate6 days ago
> It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

It's easy: The choice was made from someone else, and you just accepted it as normal. Hardware vendors shipping PC's with Windows 11, corporations who went all in to Microsoft's tooling shove Microsoft Teams down your throat because "the company uses it", and the list goes on.

jacquesm6 days ago
I refuse to use 'teams', it's a pile of garbage and spyware to boot.
rpastuszak6 days ago
Yeah, although, the word “just” is doing a lot of work here.
askonomm6 days ago
Well of course I wouldn't expect corporations to know what ethics or human decency is even if it stared them straight into the eyes, but I would expect governments to establish laws and regulations such that the psychopaths wouldn't be able to abuse people to no end.
gspr5 days ago
But why? Why do so many companies choose garbage?
wartywhoa236 days ago
> It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

There is a couple more wild things here:

1) That there is an agenda, demand and total legal abetment from the top of the power/monetary hierarchy for such corporate policies

2) That there is a horde of individual employees working to those ends without any shadow of doubt, often even vice signaling their intent to be the first to attain the figurative A-bomb or full-blown BB telescreen.

atoav6 days ago
A lot of that has to do with the fact that the people who decide to use it fall into two camps:

1. People who do not have to use it themselves (political decides, bosses, ..), but get lobbied to the max

2. People who have to administer it and know nothing else and endure the lasting pain over the perceived infinite hurdle of changing the system

I gladly can use Linux at work, so I have had a stable, reliable and unchanging system since the past 6 years, but others have to go through major pains for each version of enshittification of their OS update. In my case the OS just got better slowly and incrementally.

deaux5 days ago
3) That half of HN works at these companies and loves to whitewash their conscience by commenting "look at how awful they are" on any company that's interpreted as 1% worse. You have MS devs who comment on Amazon who comment on Meta who comment on Palantir comment on Flock comment on NSO Group, as this is roughly the "perceived hierarchy".

If you're in US big tech you're working directly for the regime and fully complicit, end of.

shevy-java6 days ago
That is true. We see that with Trump, where he tries to force the EU to open markets to the US corporations who will just steal data from EU citizens.

Why can't the EU learn more from Canada? Canada realised that with Trump there is no way to make a deal. So cut things down where possible, diversify - the EU still has to learn this lesson. In particular Germany is totally US-addicted - no idea why, other than, of course, the obvious answer ("we need to export into the USA", aka selfish greed from Germany here).

DrBazza6 days ago
My pet peeve is changes in 'user agreements' for paid services that add increasing amounts of adverts and tracking, but if you decline, you can't use the service, but the service continues to charge you. For the service they're no longer supplying.

Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose. Decline -> Your subscription will be terminated, no further monies will be debut from your account, are you sure?

rkuodys6 days ago
I'm more interested in the cases where you buy your phone, for example, and after purchase you are asked to agree with terms and conditions. Money is paid already. If you do not agree, you cannot use the device. Worse still, if 2 days after thre is mandatory update that forces you to agree to new version. If you don't like them, you should be compensated for it, as it is hidden information from you as a buyer.
Someone6 days ago
> My pet peeve is changes in 'user agreements' for paid services that add increasing amounts of adverts and tracking, but if you decline, you can't use the service, but the service continues to charge you. For the service they're no longer supplying.

> Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...:

“Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time, the trader may modify the digital content or digital service beyond what is necessary to maintain the digital content or digital service in conformity in accordance with Articles 7 and 8, if the following conditions are met:

[…]

2. The consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract if the modification negatively impacts the consumer's access to or use of the digital content or digital service, unless such negative impact is only minor. In that case, the consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract free of charge within 30 days of the receipt of the information or of the time when the digital content or digital service has been modified by the trader, whichever is later.”

masfuerte6 days ago
Does that need new law? The problem we have in the UK is that Trading Standards has been starved of funding for the last 16 years so they can't do their job. If they had funding I'm pretty sure they have the power to tackle this.
mitxela6 days ago
I expect this is already covered by existing regulations but the only enforcement avenue is a lawsuit. They know you won't sue them for $20.
impossiblefork6 days ago
This is why it would be so nice to have an EU that actually made law, instead of just handing over the right to oversee things to the commission.

Imagine if we actually had real regulations, instead of these negotiated things. Then we could just sue and normal courts could handle it.

Aurornis5 days ago
> Microsoft just recently made a new patent where they will monitor you via camera and microphone to block your program/game to show you ads,

You got the important details of the Microsoft parent wrong (the patent doesn’t use camera and microphone monitoring), but more importantly the existence of a patent is not the same as intent to deploy a technique.

Every few years news outlets will generate controversy about a patent they’ve discovered, implying that the company is going to force the evil thing on everyone. If you’ve worked at a tech company with a patent incentive you realize most of these patents are just resume padding junk or people gaming patent incentive systems. I was at a company that had a modest bonus for submitting ideas that could be patented and you wouldn’t believe the junk that people were trying to push through without any intent to ever use it.

As further proof, the patent you’re thinking of where cameras monitor the user is actually from 2009 and was patented by Sony. US8246454B2

jjulius5 days ago
>As further proof, the patent you’re thinking of where cameras monitor the user is actually from 2009 and was patented by Sony. US8246454B2

I'm not OP, but I'm really not sure how you came to that assumption. A cursory Google search for "Microsoft monitor patent" brought up a bunch of articles that actually linked to filings like what OP talked about from this year.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/26/6f/30/238c9d7...

https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...

https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/microsoft-patents-s...

hashar6 days ago
France government has announced NixOS based systems some months ago:

- https://github.com/cloud-gouv/securix a hardened/secured os

- https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example an example to use securix to build an office deployment (with some packages https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example/blob/main/co... )

Lucasoato5 days ago
I’m looking with so much admiration what France has been building in this space, especially the latest gendarmerie transition into open source OS from windows.

The problem though is that there’s always a strong push by French companies and organizations to reject English at any cost, despite the fact that is the most popular language in Europe.

Yes, I get that this is a way to preserve the French language and they have all the rights to do that (in the end, they’re the ones putting the effort in these initiatives) but imagine how faster these ideas could be shared and diffuse in Europe if French understood this. If all the countries in Europe just keep pushing their nationalist ideology instead of truly believing into a united and solid Europe Union, we won’t go any where.

RaitoBezarius5 days ago
Hi (Sécurix developer), we wrote our documentation in English and in French: https://cloud-gouv.github.io/securix.

Maintaining both languages is hard but we will do our best.

bloak5 days ago
> The problem though is that there’s always a strong push by French companies and organizations to reject English at any cost

Interestingly, a French-speaking Canadian who has spent some time in France told me that his right to use the French language is better protected in Canada than it is in France. He thinks that this is a consequence of the reciprocality implied by having more than one official language: French speakers in Canada get the same rights as English speakers, so people are happy to grant rights in return for getting them, whereas in France everyone gets screwed and you end up with a situation in which a French person wanting to do a PhD on French history at a French university has to write their grant application in English.

achenet5 days ago
Frenchman here. French companies and organization, in my experience actually really like the English language (at OVH for example, most official docs are in English), but I do think it makes sense for a government funded by people who speak mostly French (ie the French taxpayers) to do stuff in French, the language most of its citizens will be most familiar with.

Putting stuff in English will tend to exclude the less educated, or people who struggle to learn foreign languages.

EDIT: and actually, from looking at the README of https://github.com/cloud-gouv/securix

> Ce README est en français mais le reste du code, les issuers et les PR sont en anglais.

The README is in French but the rest of the code, the issues (they wrote issuers, but that is a typo I suspect) and the PRs are in English.

So. :P

nonethewiser5 days ago
> Yes, I get that this is a way to preserve the French language and they have all the rights to do that (in the end, they’re the ones putting the effort in these initiatives) but imagine how faster these ideas could be shared and diffuse in Europe if French understood this.

Isnt this just baked into the idea? The French are building an OS for internal use for their own interests.

If we then try to extend that or the Dutch OS to other countries we have the original problem of dependence.

selfhoster13125 days ago
> the latest gendarmerie transition into open source OS from windows

That was 18 years ago: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu

yubblegum5 days ago
The Dutch have ditched even github. They are thinking ahead.

https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK/DAWO-NixOS

zipy1243 days ago
Also noteworthy is that they already have their own version of ubuntu that is widely used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu
ctolsen5 days ago
I particularly enjoy the Asterix-adjacent naming scheme.
nxobject6 days ago
I’m glad multiple European agencies are giving this a whack - hopefully we’ll end up with a synthesis of the best aspects.
solarkraft6 days ago
Awesome! I believe NixOS is perfect for systems you just want to work and track reproducibly, like appliances (which a lot of server software is supposed to be). I’m glad people smarter than me are actually able to realize its advantages =)

In the same space, also check out openDesk initiated by the German Government (https://www.opendesk.eu/en) and La Suite by the French one (https://lasuite.numerique.gouv.fr/).

AFAIK, there has been some collaboration with the German government on La Suite, not sure about the others.

tombert5 days ago
It’s also the easiest if you want to make your own “distro”.

A “distro” is ultimately just a prebuilt configuration.nix file. NixOS itself even has tools to provide ISOs and QEMU images based on the build.

opan5 days ago
I've been thinking for years now that most distros could be replaced by a system config for NixOS or Guix System. I wonder if we'll ever see things go in that direction.
skohan6 days ago
I recently got my feet wet with Nix for the purpose of agent sandboxing, and it's a really great concept!

The issue I have run into is that for running llama.cpp, which is a very actively developed bleeding-edge software, it seems like experimenting with different versions/configs/patches etc. was fighting with the Nix philosophy of immutable software, so I ended up just managing it outside of nix.

But this could be user-error, I've only spent a couple of weeks with it.

fsiefken6 days ago
one can use direnv, nix-direnv and flake.nix to get an immutable and reproducible build toolchain protected from nix garbage collection, while keeping the llama.cpp branches and/or compiled binaries mutable on the local filesystem. https://github.com/nix-community/nix-direnv

for agentic execution sandboxing, preventing 'rm -rf /home' nix or nix-direnv doesn't help, podman could be used next to nix. https://discourse.nixos.org/t/what-is-sandboxing-and-what-do...

rgoulter5 days ago
> The issue I have run into is that for running llama.cpp, which is a very actively developed bleeding-edge software, it seems like experimenting with different versions/configs/patches etc. was fighting with the Nix philosophy of immutable software

May be. I'd guess it probably does it in a high-friction way compared to what you expect.

e.g. in a typical linux distro, you can just replace the (globally installed) version of the package and use that.

With Nix, you've got a declaration of how to build a package, including its dependencies; and each of those dependencies is also a declaration of how to build that package, and so on. -- And so, "just change this version" results in rebuilding the full chain of dependencies.

If you want multiple readily-available versions of llama.cpp each with different configs/patches, then using Nix would make this easier I'd think. But for "I just wanna try this, then try that", it's going to add overhead.

kevincox5 days ago
llama.cpp has a flake in-repo that I often use for trying out different branches and patches. I also have yet to have an issue just replacing the src and build number attribute in the nixpkgs build (in one cases I wanted to add an additional CMake flag but that was also easy).

IMHO this is way easier than without Nix in many cases as figuring out the upstream build process and getting it running can often be quite the chore. With Nix it is all set up for you.

overtone10005 days ago
When I just want to make something work and there isn't a nix package that can instantly give me what I want with `nix-shell -p $PACKAGE` then I use containers. That's what I've done when playing around with llama.
nba456_6 days ago
I would not be so confident the people making these decisions are smarter than you.
flumpcakes5 days ago
Is this just the old 'Government is stupid' or 'EU is too bureaucratic' trope, or did you have a particular point?
mastermage6 days ago
This realy would be a great way to foster collaboration within the EU. To create an own independant Ecosystem outside of the microsoft world.
steinwinde6 days ago
Isn't it counterproductive for every European country with a bit of extra money to develop its own open source software stack?

Don't the stakeholders perceive this as a problem, too?

Or is it inevitable, given how differently these bureaucracies are structured?

Vinnl3 days ago
Mijn Bureau is the Dutch equivalent of openDesk and La Suite: https://github.com/MinBZK/mijn-bureau
asdfman1235 days ago
> Digital autonomy

> Strengthening the digital autonomy of the Netherlands.

Apparently the US becoming an authoritarian state means people don't want to do business with us. We're giving away our best advantage, our reputation for freedom and openness, for absolutely nothing in return.

ricardobeat6 days ago
A note to the developers in the project, if anyone is reading: your repositories are in violation of the new Codeberg policy that forbids AI-generated code [1].

[1] https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-...

lucideer6 days ago
It's self-hosted on https://code.overheid.nl/ & they mirror a subset of it on Codeberg.

That might still be in violation but I would imagine it's low on Codeberg's radar since they're not making primary contributions there (& if I were DAWO I'd also be interested in limiting direct community agentic contrib).

karel-3d6 days ago
They have "migrated to codeberg" which is written in the repo itself.

However Codeberg actual "fuzzy" policy is less strict than "no LLM used ever".

KomoD6 days ago
And Codeberg also blocks real people from accessing it, for who knows what reason. I just get "Access denied." with no more info.

But they do let me visit blog.codeberg.org

danadam5 days ago
They block some user-agents, maybe that's it?

From [1]

> We must regularly implement temporary security measures to ensure the availability of Codeberg's resources and prevent abuse.

> The 403 you have received is expected based on the UA.

From [2]

> What is the version of your chromium? AFAICT <=137 gets 403 Forbidden: [...] while >= 138 works ok: [...]

[1] https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/Community/issues/3084

[2] https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/Community/issues/3078

sevenzero6 days ago
Had that issue with HTTP accessed repo, switching to SSH solved it for me.
gagik_co6 days ago
It’d make the most sense for the Dutch government (or DAWO) to have their own Forgejo instance if the goal is data sovereignty.

edit: looks like this was originally the case and then they moved?

cornedor6 days ago
They use both. https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK?q=dawo&sort=alphabetically as the official source, and https://codeberg.org/DAWO for the community parts.
utopiah6 days ago
clearly shows the need for federated forges, where you get to decide on your own rules but you still benefit from interacting with a broader set of collaborators.
mitxela6 days ago
We can insist everyone self-hosts everything, but is it worth it? Do you have your own email? It's quite normal for a government agency to contract a third party to supply e.g. furniture, instead of chopping its own wood.
mitxela6 days ago
Codeberg does not forbid AI-generated code. It forbids AI-generated projects. You would know this if you read the policy.
llimllib5 days ago
The specific language is:

> projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools

And "mostly" here seems egregiously undefined to me

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/commit/96fac426a32d1ba91ff...

NoahZuniga6 days ago
Their instance is self hosted right, so this doesn't apply I think.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

Related stories