261 points•Murmuring9087•6 days ago•326 comments•

326 comments

BLKNSLVR6 days ago
The more people leaving 'because AI' just makes me sad that there have been so few leaving 'because advertising'.
thinkingemote6 days ago
He's not even leaving "because AI". He's literally leaving to focus more on AI stuff.

> I plan to study how AI agents debug code and whether debugging tools that can make them more effective at that.

> I want to use AI agents to bring some of my hobby project ideas to life.

> I’m keen to reap the benefits of AI

and addresses the anti-AI view:

> AI detractors think that AI won’t really work. I think it will. (ed. for brev)

The main reason then is the concern of the velocity of the rollout and the increased pervasiveness of AI. Too fast, too much.

roca6 days ago
I could have explained that better, but it was already getting too long.

Personally if I could Thanos-snap AI out of existence I would, but as long as it exists, it seems better on balance to make good use of it where possible than just try to ignore it.

"Focusing more on AI stuff" ... not really? Of course I was using AI a lot in my work at Google, as well as contributing to AI acceleration. Now I won't be contributing to acceleration and I can be as cautious as I want to be about using it.

aenis6 days ago
Spot on. Or because of addictiveness. Or impact on democracy. Or ruining people's ability to focus on anything. Those attention grabbing algos havent been designed by non-technical people.
baobabKoodaa5 days ago
Is there any particular area of employment for algo geeks that you would approve of? Maybe we should just live off unemployment benefits instead of working?
jader2016 days ago
While I get the spirit of your message, advertising has been around for over a century, and I don’t believe it has done near the damage to society over that timespan that AI will likely do in a decade (if we’re not careful and responsible).

I also don’t believe addiction and other psychological exploits are used for the sole purpose of ad revenue. There are other more direct forms of monetization involved, such as microtransactions and subscriptions.

If you really want to blame something, it really all comes down to one word:

Greed.

tjah10876 days ago
> I also don’t believe addiction and other psychological exploits are used for the sole purpose of ad revenue

Instagram? Tiktok? Facebook?

Social media feeds off addiction to generate ad revenue.

And how much damage has social media done to political and social institutions and to collective mental health?

Ads on other web properties are not weaponised in the same way.

BLKNSLVR6 days ago
Agree that greed is the core reason.

Advertising has become 'active', very recently in the overall lifespan of advertising. For most of it's lifespan it was passive, it blared out at you from the TV or radio or bus stop. Now, however, it's reaching out and taking pieces of you back for analysis and reconstruction, and on-selling to any other entity interested in doing the same.

The reason is greed, yes.

We can't regulate human greed, but we can regulate the manifestation of its symptoms.

We can also choose not to work towards expanding the capacity of said symptoms.

CrimsonRain6 days ago
One hand you have proven damage. And if we are honest, the damage is way more than what has been proven; especially 2nd/3rd order which are easy to reason but hard to prove.

On the other hand you have pure speculation.

Not only that, AI has been immensely liberating/empowering for many ordinary people (That's why these AI companies have millions of users).

altairprime6 days ago
It's a shame so many people only resigned for ethical reasons once their employer's threat level progressed from exploitative to existential. Better late than never, but that does not excuse their tardiness.
4b11b45 days ago
Sure, that's a fair point. Advertising is just a mechanism cost wise that enables the platforms which contain addictive qualities.

I suppose yeah... It's just greed and corruption.

The incentive structures are wrong/poor/malignant

codeduck6 days ago
Advertising is an irritation. AI is a threat.
BLKNSLVR6 days ago
Advertising has the appearance of representing an on-going revenue source for an increasing number of devices used in our daily lives by way of surveillance and creation of a picture of an individuals habits and psychology in order to manipulate said psychology to induce the individual to spend more money on literally worthless shit.

That is a threat to the fundamental stability of society.

Lammy6 days ago
Advertising is surveillance, and surveillance is a threat.
hypfer6 days ago
The dire state most western democracies have found themselves in is a direct consequence of the work big tech did over the last 15+ years.

AI is concerning in some aspects, yes, but the loss of a shared reality has nothing to do with that, and is even more scary.

smugglerFlynn6 days ago
It’s funny how the [very real] thing that normalizes the exploitation of user data, enables “reel casinos,” suffocates creators and replaces them with “influencers,” etc. is compared with the [still very abstract] danger of AI.

Even before big money was on the table, people didn’t blink an eye at starting to work for Google/Facebook, “solving fun tasks.”

swiftcoder6 days ago
> Advertising is an irritation

I think it's worse than that. Or at least, the products that have been built because of advertising are worse than that. Instagram/TikTok/Facebook are all ultimately just surfaces to serve ads, but they've wormed their way into their users' consciousness in fairly insidious ways

rtpg6 days ago
Is this a real thought?

I think people with objections to googles business model simply don’t join the company in the first place. We’re decades from Google+ and other various “oh maybe Google isn’t perfect” events, the advertising is a known entity.

There has been a shift, and people are reacting to it

negura6 days ago
The only new thing (to me) was the observation that some of our societal timeframes (e.g picking a 4yr university degree) hinge on assuming a specific rate of societal change. If the rate of disruption exceedes that assumption, the timeframes become inadequate.

> AI is developing faster than humans can individually and collectively understand it and adapt to it. People trying to plan their futures, e.g. trying to plan for a world several years in the future as they enter university, can no longer do so the way previous generations could.

jgraham6 days ago
I tried asking this before on here, and didn't really get many useful replies (and I guess I won't again now the algorithm has decided this post has too many comments and not enough upvotes, or whatever it is that's caused it to sink off the front page), but I'm honestly interested in what people here with (school age) children are telling their kids about the future, and what that looks like in terms of decisions around education, careers etc.

This isn't because I think that having children gives people any extra insights, but because it's pretty hard to think of other situations in which people have to plan for the happiness of others they care about over a timescale of decades and where there's significantly more ability to change course than for many adults (kids tend not to have short-term financial commitments that lock them into existing career decisions, for example).

Historically I think a lot of people in tech would have recommended it as a good career (whilst at the same time, reputedly, the people who made generational wealth out of tech were arranging their children's lives to minimise exposure to the products that made them rich). Is that still what people are saying?

kristoffer6 days ago
I have three children aged 15-17. My youngest one has shown an interest in becoming an electrician, and I encourage that as I think it is pretty AI safe and in high demand.

My two older and more theoretically oriented children I am not sure what to recommend so I let them find something they are interested in mostly on their own.

keeda5 days ago
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, as I have two high schoolers, both with a knack for programming, and at least one of them wants to get into software.

A lot of my comments get responses that assume I'm an "AI booster" but what I really am is someone highly motivated to understand the capabilities and limits of this technology, because it is already very directly impacting the future of my kids.

What I tell my kids is a function of what I believe the future holds: nobody will be doing low-level cognitive work anymore, it will all be done by AI, so our job is to be better than AI. Unfortunately:

a) Low-level cognitive work is like (SWAG) 80% of all knowledge work, and so more than 80% of jobs are effectively gone, they just don't know it yet.

b) AI is getting really good really fast so that 80% is also growing quickly.

That means that the days of doing a junior-to-mid level job, kind of just coasting along -- often until retirement -- are gone. Everybody has to be good enough to be doing the top 20% of cognitive work, which involves fuzzy things we call innovation, expertise, domain knowledge, intuition, taste, handling uncertainty, and the like.

So my advice to my kids is:

1. Whatever you do, be the BEST at it, regardless of grades. Grades already meant little, now they mean even less. Being the best likely also necessitates strategic avoidance of AI, but I'm willing to be proven wrong on that.

2. Be "high agency". Annoying buzzword but perfectly captures the trait everybody will be hiring for. The 80% of the jobs were those doing the drudgework for the 20% "high agency" people calling the shots. And those are the exact jobs that are gone. Just do things, because now you can.

3. Critical thinking may soon be the only job requirement remaining. Get bullet-proof at that and learn relevant skills (maybe data literacy?)

I'm also encouraging trade school, but that seems less attractive to the kids.

I'm not saying skip college just yet, but we do intend to aggressively "value-maxx" college education (e.g. community college) and focus on building something, anything, practical -- since showing what you've built is better than degrees from most colleges.

fsflover6 days ago
You could submit this as Ask HN.
streptomycin6 days ago
My kids are too young for that, but my nephew is applying to college now. I told him that anyone who says they have any great insight into how he should be thinking about his future education/career is either wrong or lying.
Aurornis5 days ago
Having the job market completely change during 4 years of college has happened a lot recently. Ask anyone who graduated into the dot-com boom or the 2007-08 financial crisis.

The changes cut both ways and are volatile. Someone who picked Computer Science in 2018 was panicking about their job prospects during their senior year as it felt like the economy was falling apart, but then graduated into one of the most ideal hiring periods all of time for CS grads by 2022.

Prior to mainstream discussion about AI, the most common opinion was that the software industry was getting too bloated. Most people were getting tired of spending most of their week doing an Agile circus (which was different at every company) as they tried to coordinate with all of the PMs, designers, product owners, stakeholders, and other loosely-defined roles that were hired to build out someone's empire.

AI arrived just in time to explode those structures and start fresh. I think there will always be demand for developers in some form, but I don't think we're going back to the days of assembling cross-functional teams of 20 people with different roles and titles to do simple software work.

I do think that AI is going to encourage more software development overall, which will balance this out somewhat.

Either way, I think the people who went into CS because they like building things will have a place to land, even if it looks different than what they expected.

I think the people who went into this path because they like writing software but don't care as much for the product side are going to be sad, but that only really matters if they had a 2nd-best degree choice that would also not have been disrupted. Unlucky if that's the case.

I think the people who only went into software because they thought it was an easy way to make a lot of money by finding an email-job company where they could work a few hours per week are going have a hard time as companies realize they can have smaller, more efficient teams now.

injidup6 days ago
Why is uncertainty about the motives of one form of superintelligence terrifying, whilst, at the same time, uncertainty about the motives of another, omnipotent supernatural intelligence comforting? i.e. the “I don’t know God’s plan, but I sleep well knowing He has one” line of reasoning.
fwlr6 days ago
God’s been around for thousands of years and we are still here and flourishing, so obviously God is in some way “aligned”; the same cannot be said for AGI.

edit: Guys, I said “in some way”, not “perfectly”.

simonh6 days ago
Survivorship bias. Ask all the humans that have died in horrific screaming agony, and saw everything they worked for turned to dust how well that was aligned with their interests.
mcv6 days ago
There's that, but also that if God exists, there's not anything we can do about it. About AI, we can. That gives us the responsibility to figure out the right direction.
asdfasgasdgasdg6 days ago
If god would allow the creation of an unaligned superintelligence, how aligned is he really?
bzzzt6 days ago
Tell that to all the heretics burned at the stake.
BLKNSLVR6 days ago
This little blue marble of Earth is an as-yet undiscovered anti-entropic bug in an otherwise accurately functioning entropy-respectingly beautiful wasteland of a universe.
Joeri6 days ago
Even aside from how aligned the plan is with us, what about how aligned we are with the plan?

I’m always intrigued by the duality and conflict of “I have free will and must choose to act the right way” and “God has a plan so everything will be alright”.

Either free will allows us to deviate from the plan, or the plan will always be carried out and free will doesn’t really matter in the end. Arguing for God’s plan as the thing that will save us is eerily similar to nihilism, because they’re really arguing none of our actions truly matter.

roca6 days ago
Yeah, it's an age-old question. My high-level answer is, God's plan will be done regardless of what I do, but my actions determine (at least from my point of view) whether I'm aligned with the plan or not. And I want to be aligned with the plan.
monideas6 days ago
They’re related psychological phenomena (also highly related is going to be your perception of and relationship with your own father). This is why an understanding of the goodness of G-d is important to cultivate.

It should also be noted that it says in Genesis that G-d promises not to destroy the world ever again like He did with the flood. This is important psychologically because it prevents this type of apocalyptic millenarianist thinking.

tasuki6 days ago
Why are you writing G-d instead of God?
dist-epoch6 days ago
It's doubly funny because in AI accelerationist circles "Trust God's plan", or "Trust the plan" is also a thing: by definition God can't be surprised by anything that happens, thus the replacement of humans by AI is part of God's plan.
keane6 days ago
Christians believe that God is inherently good. “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you: that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.”
theGeatZhopa6 days ago
You have to differentiate between the old and the new testament in Bible. God is good and caring derived from the new testament where Jesus God's son ultimately died for all our sins.

In the old testament God was hard and judging heartless, killing his creation through flood, wanting sacrifices, killed 1st borns, leveled two whole cities Sodom and Ghomora, and was in general an hardhearted God that you should fear.

pu_pe6 days ago
We had people departing from OpenAI, Anthropic and now Google. The pace the frontier open letter was signed by over 1,000 experts. At which point do we believe the message?
_ink_6 days ago
Believing the message and being able to act on it are two pairs of shoes. There is nothing we can do. The box of pandora has been opened.

The companies have no tools for this, because there is a chance that the company who solves AI will eat the entire cake. And countries cannot do something about it, because clearly it gives an advantage in warfare. When it comes to weapons everything that is possible will be done, which means everybody needs to do it to not be defense less.

There is nothing we can do anymore. We can only hope that LeCun is right and that LLMs are a dead end and that everyone trying to solve AGI with then is essentially wasting money.

NiloCK6 days ago
> and now Google

Just a reminder that Hinton left Google from a much higher and more influential perch (not dismissing current author, but, you know), and for similar risk and communication reasons, way back in 2023.

This stuff isn't new - it's just newly breaking through into mainstream conversation.

blitzar6 days ago
> At which point do we believe the message?

Yet the same 1,000 people are all raising funds to do more on the frontier.

karahime6 days ago
Never, because it's not true. Multiple people saying the same thing doesn't cause it to become more true.
munksbeer6 days ago
What part is not true?
sowhat16 days ago
When Astra and Fable stop making absolutely brain dead mistakes on simple tasks and not a moment sooner because I’m grounded in reality. Are you aware tech bros have been saying this same thing about every AI advancement since the 1950s? The reason being every AI researcher deep down wants to believe they’re God. This happens to also be why they’re some of the most insufferable people.
pu_pe6 days ago
Surely AI can be dangerous before the point it becomes completely perfect. Very imperfect people manage to do a ton of damage already.
sfink5 days ago
That's a false sense of security. Something could have a serious issue, but provide overwhelmingly more benefit (cars, say), and thus people would use them anyway. If people did not use cars, then traffic fatalities would not be a concern.

People are using AI.

Your argument is that AI cannot be a serious concern because it has major known limitations. But most of us are using it despite the major known limitations. So the existence of the known limitations is irrelevant to determining what level of harms are possible -- unless the known limitations are directly limiting the harms. In practice, it seems like most current harms, and many of the (not stupid) feared harms, are completely possible despite the known limitations. Sometimes even exacerbated by them. ("Sorry, you told me to never stop your insulin pump, but I stopped your insulin pump while diagnosing a test failure. I will record in my memory file that I must always... hello? user?")

The (not stupid) parenthetical might be too weaselly for you, but that's how I see the "AI is going to rise up and intentionally subjugate or exterminate humanity" brand of doomerism. While I don't think that's strictly impossible, there are so many other ways harms that are much more imminent and much harder to defend against, that it seems foolish (to me!) to worry about those.

If you can stop a problem by pulling out the plug, you don't have a real problem.

If you don't want to pull out the plug, you do have a real problem. (Don't want, or can't afford to, or can't be bothered to so extremely that you never will, or whatever.)

perching_aix6 days ago
> wants to believe they’re God

Trope circa 1950 not true, because of trope circa even earlier...

roca6 days ago
> Are you aware tech bros have been saying this same thing about every AI advancement since the 1950s?

Whatever AI people have been saying for the last 70 years, AI capabilities have improved stupendously in the last 10 years and there is no sign of the rate of improvement slowing down. I would like to deny it, but I can't.

youoy6 days ago
Im at a point where i think the way to steer the situation we are in is to steer the machine from the inside, not quit and leave the people with the opposite mindset keep all the economic resources.

I doubt a movement of the people from the outside will work this time when all of the capital is in the other peoples hands. We need at least some of it held by someone with the opposite view to make the movement credible. And I dont think VC and IPO dynamics are compatible with this.

If you are already thinking of quiting, you can organize and internal movement and use the power of your labor to steer things. One person quitting is nothing for the company. The risk of big group quitting at the same time on the other hand... The labor is the only thing the company cares about. So we cannot wait until we are all replaceable by AI and we lose that leverage.

jhanschoo6 days ago
Clearly the details matter in this making such a decision, and not everyone has the same capabilities to "steer the ship" from within or out. You don't know if there are concerned people within acting, but see most obviously concerned people leaving to act (or at least refuse to act).
youoy6 days ago
Good point! I was speaking from my experience (at non tech companies, thats true). What i have seen is that there is an internal self selection of people that "refuse to play the game". My point is that that could have been a fair choice before, but the stakes in this new AI situation are at a point where they seem too high for that to be a good choice.

But nothing would make me more happy than knowing that there are concerned people acting internally.

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