AI forced me to abandon evidence-based best pedagogy practices, focus on oral and written exams, and redo most assignments. Here is what we did in 17-645...

304 points•azhenley•6 days ago•282 comments•

282 comments

a577215 days ago
I am teaching some math courses, and I see how LLMs disrupted all standard approaches, and I don't know what to do.

I rely on written exams that are open book, but forbid any use of computers and smartphones in class.

The university insists that homework can't be optional, but it lost its meaning. I've tried to explain to my students that it's in their interest to think about home assignments on their own, but the majority will obviously use gen AI, and it's such a waste of time to check and grade LLM output.

I just had an experience where all students were given "sample problems" to try at home and prepare for the written test. Many of them just dumped the document into an LLM, asked it to produce some "exam guide", and showed up with that thing printed out, asking me during the test to explain what LLM output meant.

It seems like the university also has many people pushing for AI use for everything, but I teach basic stuff where the goal is to make students think on their own and digest some fundamental ideas, LLMs can produce perfect solutions, but relying on them is pointless.

professorthread4 days ago
I teach math-heavy economics courses. I found that grading homeworks for completeness and pairing the homework due date with an in-class quiz on the problem set material (taken in class the day the problem set is due, after the set is turned in) has reduced the incentive for students to use LLMs to complete the homework. Exam questions closely mirror what's on the homework, and exam grades correlate with students who make legitimate attempts on their homework. I can sus out legit attempts typically by handwriting. No erasing and fast writing means it was copied.

For grade weights, I weight the homework the lowest of any grading category, with in-class quizzes next, and exams scores the highest.

rao-v4 days ago
Humm doesn’t this perhaps suggest you should do away with the homework, offer optional practice exercises and double down on in-class testing?
chis3 days ago
This is a great approach. I remember even pre-AI having issues where, at a big state school, basically all the answers to homework could be found online. Sometimes I made the choice to copy a homework and tell myself I’d catch up later. But the classes where there was a scheduled quiz right away just forced me to keep up.
BeetleB4 days ago
> The university insists that homework can't be optional, but it lost its meaning.

The problem is not LLMs, but your university. In my undergrad, almost all the math courses had no required HW. They'd assign it, but you wouldn't turn it in. You'd come to office hours for help on the HW, or ask in class (they'd often dedicate the first 10-15 minutes of each lecture to Q&A).

It was awesome for people like me. No time wasted on neatly presented HWs. I'd do it quickly, verify the answers, and study for the exams.

The flip side was there were many exams (you don't want your grade catered if you do poorly in one exam). A course like calculus could have 4-5 "midterms", and then the final. Often, they'd drop your lowest midterm score so you're allowed one bad day.

trostaft4 days ago
Indeed, I've switched over to model similar to this in the course I teach. Weekly optional problem set + in-class quiz every week with one homework problem verbatim + an extension. The homeworks are completely open resource, LLM, friend, sorcery, w/e. I figure that, even if they're given an oracle, they have to internalize the ideas to the point where they can generalize on the follow-up. I'll only really know when the course finishes, but I think this will work out. I want to pair this with an oral midterm and final, but that'll have to wait a semester.
submain4 days ago
In my country of origin (not US) that's how it worked starting in high school. Homework was called "suggested problems". The teacher reviewed them in class. No grading. We ended up doing it because that was almost the only way to pass the exams (which, btw, could be up to 50 questions long...)
seanmcdirmid3 days ago
I heard from a friend who went to German university that the homework was never graded, maybe you could get help with it but the professor didn’t have TAs and had a large class. Lots of Midterms were also not feasible given the setup, so often 100% of your grade depended on the final.

I can’t imagine as American how that would go down with most American students.

tha_hnrain4 days ago
I think a possible solution is to make homework carry no grade weight, and simply mark it as complete or incomplete, like a presence check.

Homework still provide valuable practice for students who are truly committed to learning. An automated system could provide an initial assessment and feedback. However, students can request human feedback paired with an in-person meeting. Such requests would require a mandatory explanation of what feedback they want or what the issue is. Professors and TAs will therefore only read and answer such requests themselves and will not waste time on AI output. At the same time, the system will still support students who are genuinely interested in learning.

Students who use AI to do their homework are not interested in such feedback anyway, and they will also avoid in-person meetings because it will naturally reveal that they are unprepared and did not do the homework themselves, which is humiliating.

To make this system work, we should present the in-person meetings as collaborative 'working sessions' or group office hours. Encouraging students to sign up in pairs or small groups also reduces individual anxiety.

The main channels for grading remain exams and oral presentations.

gosub1004 days ago
In most colleges, if too many students fail the course, the instructor is blamed. So you cannot optimize solely on catching AI cheaters.
paul79864 days ago
Committed to learning and going to jump ahead here to say if smart glasses (without cameras or in time with) become the norm and Ai is always right how many will not take the time to learn the information is always right in front of them in their view.

Myself as a student i take my class notes and the subject matter the teacher provides and have Ai create multiple choice quizzes. It's a much quicker way to learn tho not as quickly as AI glasses I mentioned.

lostlogin4 days ago
> oral presentations.

These can be written by AI. Or do you mean something more like the defending of a thesis?

viccis4 days ago
It's crazy that we went from "we found a significant number of students used AI in our course and gave them a 0" to "yeah they all use it we can't stop it". Basically just accepting widespread cheating, normalizing and accepting the complete abandonment of the first lesson in ethics we are taught and held to in academia.

I know this is absolutely impossible because colleges and universities have headed in completely the opposite direction, but the solution: Literally just expel them. Just like they did when people cheated when I was in college. Don't make it a small punishment so that they turn it into a risk/reward assessment. Colleges are overpopulated anyway; just trim the fat of students who shouldn't be there. Do a follow up oral exam interview about their project and if they can't explain what someone like me spent 30+ hours building and can speak about for 4 hours if asked, then expel them. They can make your coffee at the nearby Starbucks, who cares.

If you don't do this then understand that you are telling your students not using AI that they will need to begin cheating like the others to be able to keep up with the changes. OP mentioned they massively increased the scope of their assignments, which means OP is forcing their students to use AI now.

chemodax4 days ago
Agreed. It’s very sad modern society is stopping using ethics and at the same time increase using different firms of policing.
drakonka5 days ago
I'm taking a year-long sabbatical to study a language at university right now and they're changing their assignment processes to curtail AI use. We have two versions of written assignments - the first to be written by hand in class with just a Swedish-Swedish word book available, and the second version to be typed at home implementing the professor's corrections from v1.

At least in this course students seem to be taking their strict 'no AI' policy quite seriously. Then again this is also the kind of course you do when you want to actually learn the material. It provides a qualification for further higher education in Swedish, so if we don't legitimately learn the stuff there's just no point as we won't manage in future courses.

TFNA5 days ago
Recently it has been reported that many Chinese students in Moscow are no longer learning Russian during their years at the university (to the dismay of Russian officials who hoped this would be a form of soft power): even for in-person lectures their Bluetooth earbuds will just translate the lecturer's Russian into Chinese in real time. So, perhaps people around the world will start feeling that, thanks to technology, exams testing language skills are a mere formality and can be safely cheated on.
dofm4 days ago
I have been feeling for ages like I am too old for the tech industry.

Reading this has made me understand that the recruitment industry will soon have to adopt the default position that anyone who graduated after mid 2025 is likely misrepresenting the depth of their understanding; people who graduated before that are the equivalent of low-background steel, until our processes catch up.

Maybe there’s still room for me.

gblargg5 days ago
Seems the core problem is that many/most students aren't there to learn the material, just to get grades. The class is a complex mechanism to force them to learn material against their will in a validation arms race. The teacher's job becomes something like a military commander. Seems depressing.
professorthread4 days ago
This is the way it's always been, sadly. Before AI submissions I had to regularly look for where my materials were posted on sites like Course Hero. Students copy-pasted from Wiki, articles, blogs, etc without attribution. Before that, they were buying or finding solutions books and copying out of there, or hiring people to do their homework/write papers/sit exams for them.

The primary difference now is that the both costs of cheating and ability to verify cheating on the instructor side have decreased dramatically, in tandem. There's also been a kind of mass effect, a cultural change in the attitude of students, where the sheer prevalence of cheating among their peers has made them less likely to feel fear, shame, or guilt over cheating. Students in the past who were caught were likely to confess immediately. Students now are increasingly belligerent and more likely to deny cheating, not just because they believe the professor can't 100% prove it, but also because they believe being caught out for cheating when most of their peers are getting away with it is unfair.

CrimsonRain5 days ago
This is because we shield children too much from reality. If they had a fire under their ass that made them realize if they don't study well, they will forever be locked into flipping burgers or being homeless, most of them would move their assess.

Don't do anything productive for the society but still get to live a decent life on benefits, job security etc combined with addictive social media have ruined most kids will to study.

And the schools are even worse. When I was in school, teachers encouraged learning things; whether for school or outside, with teacher or self help. Everything was fair game and supported. Debate was normal.

Nowadays the teachers in schools are like a cult. Kids are tuned to reject anything from outside; anything that contradicts teacher is a no go zone. Anything that's "too advanced" compared to what teacher is doing is forbidden. Kids are scared of learning by themselves because the teachers punish it. What do you think these kids will do when they grow up?

MaxBarraclough5 days ago
> If they had a fire under their ass that made them realize if they don't study well, they will forever be locked into flipping burgers or being homeless, most of them would move their assess.

That strikes me as backward. The higher the expected monetary value of good grades, the more students will prioritise grades over deep learning.

parineum4 days ago
> This is because we shield children too much from reality. If they had a fire under their ass that made them realize if they don't study well, they will forever be locked into flipping burgers or being homeless, most of them would move their assess.

This seems pretty inaccurate to me at just about every turn.

The fire under their asses is for grades and a degree because they've erroneously been told they need one or else they'll be flipping burgers.

It's such a cliche thing to say but cheating at school cheats yourself of the education you could be getting but, since that's not what most people are there for, they cheat. They are there because they've been told that they need a degree to make a decent living and the degree doesn't technically require learning.

anal_reactor5 days ago
The least paragraph... has always been the case. My parents told me stories about teachers denying facts not to lose authority. I distinctly recall my teacher pretending that peripheral vision doesn't exist not to lose authority.
tarkin24 days ago
The easiest path is to allow students to cheat on homework and watch them fail in the non-coursework-based exam. Your classes, then, abandon to the un-motivated; with AI enlarging the educational gap.

If you’re forced to attain a pass rate, and can’t watch so many fail, then the certificate becomes worthless in the workplace. Or just offer paid retakes and watch AI make you money.

If you insist on persisting with coursework then a short but heavily-weighted oral part seems to be the only answer, something that will diminish teaching time as a downside, as the article and comments about the flipped classroom touched on.

j454 days ago
The non-coursework based exam can also probably be gamed in the end.

Students could just use the AI to teach/tutor the material to them instead, but the institutions are clutching the pearls too tightly.

stonedivot4 days ago
Isn't that the point? To learn? If you're setting a goal that the students must pass, who cares if they get the information from the professor or they teach themselves?

I don't think "learning the material by other means" is the exam being "gamed".

testing223214 days ago
What’s the difference in using an AI as a tutor or paying a human tutor?

As long as they learn.

Propelloni5 days ago
Maybe the Germans were right? One in-person test, preferably an interview, at the end of the semester should be enough to motivate the smarter part of the bunch to make sure they understand the issues at hand. The rest is chaff anyway. Don't optimize for chaff.
plorkyeran5 days ago
As was sort of offhandedly mentioned in the article, all pre-LLM research into what results in students actually learning the material (as a distinct thing from passing the class) has landed pretty solidly on the side of frequent, low-stakes exams having better outcomes than rare high-stakes exams. The best students learn the material regardless of how you evaluate them; some weaker students will benefit from more frequent nudges to keep up rather than trying to cram at the end, some students simply won't realize they're falling behind without regular feedback, and some students successfully cram at the end and pass the class without retaining much of the material. The final group often expresses a preference for the one-exam-at-the-end model despite being disserved by it if the goal is to learn and not merely pass.
xpct4 days ago
That's entirely fine. Have midterms that are also interviews. Have labs where TAs interview students vocally every few weeks, etc.
Asooka4 days ago
Yeah and look at where this soft approach landed us. We have entitled crybabies voting for Hitler 2.0 because they can't stomach the uncomfortable feeling of seeing a diverse person in their pure white neighbourhoods. Children and young adults need to be hit with the big hard fist of reality repeatedly until they become good people. If some should fall through the cracks, they would not have made for good members of society anyway, so best they fall early and not drag the rest of us with them.
YmiYugy5 days ago
I had that a variation of that experience. This was mostly in the pre-AI days. Homework assignments were mandatory but only counted towards exam admission not the final grade. Much better for motivation.
tgv5 days ago
When I was a student, nobody cared if you did your home work. The teacher would go through the home work in the next class, and if you didn't do it, you would just lose the opportunity.

Then there was the written exam at the end of each course, which constituted 100% of the grade. The only reason that got abolished was because it made too many students fail, and the board hates that. So that became a race to the bottom, and apparently, we can still go lower.

It's reaching levels where most uni diplomas don't matter any longer. The only thing that will then matter is your network. That's the end of social mobility.

ares6234 days ago
"Don't optimize for chaff." is being chaff a permanent state of a child or person?

I think I understand what you mean though, and I kind of agree. I just don't like the use of the word chaff, like something you would discard permanently.

I'm pretty sure I was "chaff" at some point (maybe multiple) in my life growing up.

andrewflnr4 days ago
It may not be permanent, but by the time someone goes to university it's not the instructor's job to fix them.
Barrin924 days ago
Funny to see this comment, that's exactly how studying math in Cologne was. On the very first day one of our profs said:

"This is math, you can find all solutions to the course problems in old material since I've been teaching here for 20 years, but know this you're cheating yourself and at the end of the semester you're taking a three hour test on pen and paper so good luck"

I see zero reason why AI should impact teaching. You can grade exercises as information to the students as to how well they're doing, but simply have an exam at the end of the course. Needlessly to say like 60-70% flunked through Analysis I and Linear Algebra. But they're adults and they're there voluntarily, so why is this an issue

djeastm4 days ago
They pay as much tuition as the wheat and the schools want them to keep paying said tuition.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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