576 points•jbotz•7 days ago•293 comments•

293 comments

0xWTF6 days ago
Hi, your friendly, local pathologist here. I'm the kind of doctor that diagnoses liver diseases, cancer, lots of infections, inflammatory processes, benign tumors, and runs the lab that a lot of other doctors use the results from to inform a lot of their other decisions.

If you really want to learn about this stuff, Robert Weinberg's The Biology of Cancer is where to start. It introduces concepts starting where a high school student could understand and carefully walks through the history of our development of knowledge until, by the end, the pithy chapters are helping novel concepts for real science flower in your brain all on their own. It's the best book of biological science I have ever read. 10/10, will read again.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393887655

hobo1236 days ago
Pathology... reminds me of all those studies with accident victims all over the world (and often as early as the 70s - today's numbers are likely much worse) that show 30% or half the population being liver-toxic in vitamin A (in all age groups). Lots of health problems are simply downstream from that.
Melatonic6 days ago
Why would that many people have so much vitamin A ?
mikeodds6 days ago
How could I determine if I’m in/out of this group
tefkah6 days ago
What are accident victims?
FiatLuxDave6 days ago
I'm about halfway through this book and I can second the recommendation.
agumonkey6 days ago
Any other similar books ?
harhargange6 days ago
Hi Doctor. My sibling recently was diagnosed with liver Mets. Is it really incurable? Docs here refused surgery in 36F
naijaboiler6 days ago
In general, we don’t do curative surgeries for metastatic cancers. The thinking is that it is has spread that much away from where it started, there little point going to cut out where it started alone. Are we then to cut out every place it has spread to and every how it got to those places.

We do do palliative surgeries if warranted but the intent there is not to cure, but to relieve some symptoms and transiently improve quality of life.

Please direct any specific questions you have about your sisters case directly to her doctors

airstrike6 days ago
My grandpa and his dad were both pathologists, so I always appreciate seeing one in the wild.

Thanks for the rec, I'm buying it just so I can explore their world a little bit.

bookofjoe5 days ago
Retired anesthesiologist here. I'm buying Weinberg's book based on your review as soon as I finish this comment. Thanks!
senfiaj6 days ago
Most of the body doesn't regenerate because there was not enough evolutionary pressure. Even with regeneration you could still easily die from some severe injury, blood loss or disease. While salamander regeneration is impressive, it has its limitations. For example, no known adult salamander can regenerate an entirely removed eye. Also if you chop a salamander, it will not regenerate like a Planarian worm, it will just die. And a fun fact, Axolotls can regrow a limb yet cannot regenerate an adult eye lens.

Also, although the article is mostly true, there are some inaccuracies:

>> Neurons and cardiac muscle cells don't reproduce after childhood

There is some evidence showing a slow cell turnover in cardiac muscle, estimated around ~1% per year in young adults, falling toward ~0.5% in older people. Most neurons don't regenerate, but there an evidence that some parts of the adult brain (such as hippocampus) still produce new neurons, although the number is very low.

Liver regeneration is not perfect either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOv7Sr3X-eo .

ijustlovemath6 days ago
I have an axolotl. They're really incredible creatures, with way more personality and interests than you would expect. They are really soft, and almost have the same density as water, so they can be neutrally buoyant and even swim rapidly like a fish. They're also very sensitive to sharp things; mine recently got a cut from an aquarium decoration, which healed fully over the course of a week. Her previous owner had neglected her and induced tail curl, which took longer to heal (a few months) but did fully heal. I have since adjusted her tank to give it all flat or smooth surfaces, with some variety.
burning_hamster6 days ago
> Most of the body doesn't regenerate because there was not enough evolutionary pressure.

All basal metazoan branches (ctenophora, porifera, placozoa, cnidaria) have species that are capable of whole body regeneration, so this trait was likely lost on the bilaterian branch (which includes chordates like ourselves). If anything, there are evolutionary pressures to loose this trait.

fc417fc8026 days ago
For example, consider how frequently people lose a limb, and further consider the ratio of survival to death for injuries in that general ballpark. Then balance this quality of life improvement, for those who survive, for those injured in the first place, against the fact that all people with such a biological capability will almost certainly experience a significantly higher rate of cancer. Because in a nutshell cancer is uncontrolled proliferation while regeneration is controlled proliferation. (It would be very interesting to know the rate of incidence of various cancers in axolotls if they lived anywhere near as long as a human.)
ACCount396 days ago
Not "pressure to lose this trait" as much as "no pressure to improve it"?

As anatomy gets more complex, the process of getting it from "arbitrary heavily damaged state" to "functioning state" gets more complex too. And mammals are a bit more anatomically complex than placozoa.

If your entire body is a hollow sphere 4 cells thick, "repairing arbitrary damage" is very simple and natural. When you have bones, blood vessels, nerves, muscles and tendons, all wrapped in skin - all of which have to be restored correctly for a lost limb to function well? The gap between "just plug the holes" and "restore the function" grows, and the complexity of implementing usable regeneration goes up massively.

Humans can repair most of simple tissue-level damage well enough. The complexity equivalent of placozoan regeneration is in place. Rebuilding complex anatomy is what's often unimplemented. Seems like that is the part that requires some novel adaptations rather than simply not deactivating the mechanisms that are already there.

lanstin6 days ago
I read a book on epidemics where some modern theories on death were essentially its selected for to force potential infecting organisms to keep starting over on mastering a given genetic environment. Ones grandchildren are more likely to survive the successor plague than you are, hence a population with excessively long life would have died out. I think the evidence was from long lived trees? (Pandemic by Sonia Shah).
BrtByte6 days ago
So even the animals we think of as regeneration champions have a very specific menu of things they can rebuild
senfiaj6 days ago
Exactly, limbs are quite large portion of the body, that's why many think salamanders would have no problems with regenerating all other smaller body parts. And that's not the case.
xboxnolifes6 days ago
> Most of the body doesn't regenerate because there was not enough evolutionary pressure.

Maybe, but isnt this basically tautological? "You didnt evolve this way because of how evolution works". The more interesting question is why did certain parts evolve the way they did, and can we harness the knowledge?

jimmySixDOF6 days ago
Dr Michael Levin at Tufts has a lot of electro based theories about regeneration based on findings with Palnarians he adjusts the voltage states and gets two headed liniages amongst the many many other things his lab covers
cityofdelusion6 days ago
The author suggests humans are overturned to repairing skin and blood, but I strongly disagree. People with problems with wound healing can face significant disability and mortality. Wound healing allows us to have surgery and close up with simple sutures. A lot of complications post-surgery in humans and other animals are specifically from impaired wound healing capability. It’s a good trade-off: nearly everyone will eventually get cut open by accident or on purpose. The skins ability to heal is so amazing that many types of wounds require nothing other than some cleaning, the body will fully clot, bridge, build, and scar back to most retained function. Wound healing allows us to heal large burns and even simply leave many wounds open to air.

Complications with healing are pretty brutal. Necrosis, amputation, infection are all common without the built-in cascade we have.

Rury6 days ago
I thought the reason was well known, and the article briefly touches it...

The liver's great ability to regenerate largely boils down to how homogenous and simple the liver actually is. It's structured more like a battery pack, where you have individual cells that are largely functionally identical to each other that perform the bulk of the work, and they happen to be connected together. If an individual cell fails, (for the most part) all you need to do is merely regrow a new one, and it's orientation matters little (relatively speaking as compared to other organs) so long as it's connected to the rest of the battery pack (organ).

Contrast that to something like a kidney, which has complex orientation that is formed via growth, and which has a high degree of different types of cells where replacing a part isn't as simple as merely regrowing the part which failed, but also about that growth happening in precisely the right location. So instead of it being like having to replace a failed cell in a battery pack, it's like replacing a wheel to a car. Attaching it anywhere (like the windshield for example) won't necessarily fix the issue, it needs to be connected to the axle...

ASalazarMX6 days ago
Also, the liver metabolizes a lot of toxins, and some cells die in the process, so there was a strong pressure to replace them. That pressure was our ancestors insisting on eating toxic things like mushrooms and spoiled food until it didn't immediately kill them.
seethishat6 days ago
Many problems with would healing are due to nutrient deficiencies. For example, people who are sulfur deficient will heal and recover much slower than those who are not.

That's why so many professional athletes take MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane). Their bodies would not be able to recover as quickly without the extra sulfur.

shiandow6 days ago
Huh, another reason to eat more spinach I suppose.
throwawayffffas6 days ago
The problem is not wound healing, the problem is over the top inflammatory responses, and yeah with out them injuries could be much worse, but we get a lot of diseases because of accumulated damaged from long term inflammations. Point is doing simple things like eating a bit of sugar spikes your inflammatory reactions, causing all sort of problems down the road.

Ideally we could have a switch, low inflammatory reactions when good, high inflammatory reactions on injuries.

WhiteOwlLion6 days ago
Your liver makes platelets so if your liver function is not optimal, wound healing is harder.

Some people also have rare diseases where they don’t have clotting factors so require a transfusion of clotting factors before surgery for optimal wound healing.

BigTTYGothGF6 days ago
> Your liver makes platelets

Megakaryocytes are primarily bone marrow cells.

frostysonic6 days ago
I have first-hand experience! My immune system slowly killed my liver (primary sclerosing cholangitis), and I had a transplant. (btw, for $0, thank you to the Australian health system)

I received a cut-down liver from the donor; I got the bigger lobe, a child recipient got the other lobe.

Within a few months of transplant, the new liver had regrown, but (probably because of the transplant orientation) rather than growing across to the left, it grew down the side of my body.

It's all good and functions fine, it's just that now my right-side of my body isn't as 'saggy' as my left because of the area it grew in to.

It's an amazing organ, and it truly sucks when you don't have a well-functioning one.

adamredwoods6 days ago
Hello fellow PSCer! Amazing to hear even partial liver transplants work.
frostysonic6 days ago
Hello! I hope you're going ok :)
ASalazarMX6 days ago
Does this mean a healthy donor could donate a sizable chunk of their liver every year?
frostysonic6 days ago
Possible? yes. Practical, not really. Living liver donors (at least in Australia) are rare, because (unlike kidney donations) it's an extremely risky procedure for a living donor. My donor was a deceased donor, and I'm forever grateful for their (and their family's) decision.
Noe20976 days ago
> And even after taking [immunosuppressants], there’s a 30% chance the kidney will be rejected within 10 years. This is not helpful.

To the author: thank you, you made my day. It had been a very, very long time since I last read an article on the Internet that felt written by a human being - with humor, some poetry, and science.

theplayerofgame6 days ago
Kidney failure and jokes... OK, I feel obliged to share a true story. A relative of mine donated their kidney to one of their siblings. A couple of years ago we were all playing "naughty Santa" AKA "white elephant". It was the donee's turn and they chose to steal the donor's present. The donor replied "oh man, that's just like when you stole my kidney!" I've never laughed and cried so much in my life.
varispeed6 days ago
Why nature did this? So that 3rd parties don't engage in organ swaps?

Almost like Apple with component serialisation.

Terr_6 days ago
There are extremely good security reasons for it.

Even if we assume your body has a foolproof is_same_species() test, your neighbors' cells may:

1. Be healthy, but have the wrong priorities or behavior, so that they start doing the wrong tasks or sending the wrong messages in the wrong places. [0]

2. Be healthy, but they're just a creepy flesh-mask a parasite has constructed around itself.

3. Be individually hijacked by viruses, and your body won't have the same baseline information to tell that they've deviated from your neighbor's standard.

4. They may be fully human, but gone feral into a transmissible tumor [1].

____

[0] This is actually a risk from pregnancy, as overambitious fetal cells leak into the mother.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonally_transmissible_cancer

sebzim45006 days ago
With very few exceptions, if there is something in you that isn't you then you would be better off if it was dead.
srdjanr6 days ago
In this case nature was just indifferent to transplants as they weren't a thing even 100 years ago.

As others have explained, foreign cells usually meant trouble, so fighting them by default was a good choice. And there was no pressure to allow transplants specifically, because they didn't exist.

Also, (I think) you usually need a transplant later in life, after reproduction, so too late for evolution to affect it. So even if we had transplants for millions of years, it might not have made much difference either.

pkaye6 days ago
I'm a kidney transplant patient myself. Your cells have HLA markers to distinguish your own cells from foreign cells. That is to prevent your immune cells from attacking your own body. This also makes it harder to find a organ match.

The reason I needed a kidney transplant is because of an auto disease called IgA Nephropathy where the IgA antibody has a small defect that causes the rest of the immune system to attack it and the whole mess clogs up the kidney filters over time.

mrguyorama6 days ago
There is zero inherent way to tell a malicious group of proteins and RNA or cells or biological process from a non-malicious once. They are both the same exact activity. Your body is killing cells all the time, so even cell death isn't a certain indicator (though is an indicator in the innate immune system and cells dying the "wrong" way will activate a response)

The only useful signal is "This wasn't here yesterday". Your body generates B cells with a little sensor that has it's own special systems to have especially randomized sensor activity. Your body is generating random binding sites because there's no rules for what a hostile protein would look like.

Then it prunes these B cells by showing them a bunch of proteins your body is capable of producing, and killing any cell that signals for proteins your body normally has. This leaves you with a bunch of B cells that have random sensors tuned to only trigger for things that weren't in your body yesterday.

This is great, because it's a proactive measure against evolution. It's the core innovation of the adaptive immune system, and a massive advancement in biological self defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germinal_center

Cells from someone else will have some different markers and proteins than found in your body. Human genetics are 99% the same yes, but there is massive diversity in the remainder.

Note that this constraint is not biological in nature! Any general purpose "programming" environment cannot differentiate between "Hostile" and "Benign" by function or structure alone! The body, like many smart cybersecurity groups, made an allowlist. Though the way that allowlist is made is fascinating

WhiteOwlLion6 days ago
Immunosuppressants like tacrolimus given at too high of a level for many years can wear down your kidneys faster requiring a transplant potentially after ten years.
buildsjets6 days ago
I asked ChatGPT if it is OK to an explain a joke without being asked to do so, and She said no.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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