To be clear, none of the content, but the site engine itself is all AI built. It is a long and somewhat sad story. By the end, I hope you'll forgive me.

43 points•joelberger•6 days ago•48 comments•

48 comments

jamwise6 days ago
I have two issues with AI coding. The first is how giant trillion dollar companies are profiting off the accumulated labour of mostly open source developers who mostly offered their work for free. Open source had this pattern too but there was a kind of give and take that is not present here. The other is the atrophying of my own skills. That’s one of the reasons I don’t use it for my side projects since it’s become a requirement in my day job and I don’t want to forget how to code.

This creates a grey area for things like a personal blog. If you’re not trying to maintain skills, yeah I wish we could avoid supporting these companies, but I can’t be a hypocrite seeing as I have to use them for work, and I use my provided account as a personal tutor to learn cool stuff.

Ancapistani5 days ago
I’m not convinced skill atrophy is an issue.

I am convinced that it’s happening, but I’ve had it happen before when I spent a couple of years in roles where I didn’t directly write code. It took my about two weeks to get back to where I was, and I see no reason to expect it will be any different these days.

Further, I don’t expect I’ll ever need to refresh those skills. The next time I pick them up will likely be simply because I wanted to write something myself on my off-time.

hackerbrother6 days ago
What’s wrong with using work offered for free?
jamwise6 days ago
The implicit arrangement in corporate use and contribution to open source is that everyone benefits. People contribute work and testing that improves libraries and tools that everyone else can use, making all our projects better. This includes corporations, many of which also engage in this mutual benefit by hiring actual developers to back open source projects. I think it’s a brilliant system, huge fan.

Enter LLMs training off that data. It looks similar on the surface, but if you think about the balance of cost and benefit it becomes clear it is no longer balanced. The training algorithms and models are closed source, and come at a hefty usage cost. AI companies saved hundreds of billions of dollars of paying humans to help train their algorithms by taking advantage of an open system that was open on with another kind of balance in mind.

So in short the work was offered for free within a specific kind of relationship. Now a powerful outsider is steamrolling and taking advantage of that existing open dynamic.

SmasherEpilepti6 days ago
Most FOSS is offered free of charge, but not free of conditions. You still have legal requirements spelled out in the licenses, from attribution to actually requiring you to license your work accordingly.
RIMR6 days ago
I feel like the standard "Free as in Gratis vs. Free as in Freedom" argument doesn't quite explain the issue people have here.

Open-source code still had terms, and AI training was an unfortunate blind spot in those terms. If a human being learned how to code 100% from open-source code, nobody saw a problem if that person went on to write closed-source code.

But it feels fundamentally different when the open-source code is just being fed into a machine that uses absurd amounts of processing until closed-source code comes out the other side. It feels like theft.

DarmokJalad17016 days ago
> mostly offered their work for free

And that means nobody can make money off of their derivative work? If I open source my work, that means it is open source (by definition). It is a gift[1] - to everyone. If someone uses it to create value, good for them!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL

frizlab6 days ago
I have done a few open-source projects (none of those took off, but that’s OK). I did them because I wanted to give to the people, not greedy corporations. It was an implicit contract with the world, which has been broken by AI. You can say “but it was never written!” Maybe. It still hurts. (And it is also not really true: for example MIT requires attribution, which I’m still waiting to see in all of the AI-generated/AI-helped projects…)

It was also a joy to write things and know certain like-minded people would like it. Now I don’t really want to do that anymore.

jdechko6 days ago
“I've learned a lot about using a tool like this but the biggest result is that development has lost its joy. There were no challenges, there were no puzzles, no hurdles to overcome. The biggest lesson is that software development is now about the destination not the journey, the journey is for the agent. If that's the case then the joy now has to be thinking about what is possible. I have built features into this site that I never would have on my own.”

I really appreciate these words. I am not a professional developer, and my code to this point has been limited to VBA and writing excel formulas (if that’s even coding).

I’ve recently started work on a full-blown Mac App. I’ve had the idea for years, but never the expertise. It’s not something I’d ever pay someone for either, mainly because it would be expensive and I don’t know if there’s a market for it. But I got a Pro subscription, fired up Xcode and got to work. Within minutes I had a proof of concept. Less than a month later, and I’ve got what I consider to be a nearly finished app with more features than I’d ever considered.

In the interim, I’ve also vibe-coded up two quick single-page web tools to my (and my wife’s) specifications. Things that I could describe, but would have taken me so much time to learn and build that I just wouldn’t have bothered.

skyberrys6 days ago
Your mission is not to build software, it's to share your collection of cool typewriters with the world. And your AI built website helps you do that! It shares your YT channel, and now I know a bit more about typewriters. Thank you for building your site with AI and for building your collection with passion. Do you have a typewriter room somewhere?
joelberger6 days ago
I do actually have a typewriter room and I love to go in there and appreciate the craftsmanship and history. Much as the other replier commented, there are two separate things in play here. I AM glad to have a website for the collection, I'm very glad to share the collection and I do enjoy thinking of new and interesting ways to make that history more present on the site.

The other side of it is my job. My personal mission was to display my typewriters, but my professional mission IS to build software. This post was me wrestling with the latter more than the former.

delillos6 days ago
I think you missed the message of the post -- sure, the typewriters are ostensibly the objective of the website, but there was a separate, interesting challenge that he enjoyed for, you know, human reasons: it's fun to learn new things and apply what you learned. In this case, it's software development, but it could easily be learning how to fix a car, how to cook a certain cuisine, how to play an instrument.

Sure, the mission is the end goal: having a fixed car, a completed meal, a sonata you can rehearse. These are all good for you, the viewer, to admire. But that's not where the enjoyment comes from for the creator. It's completely empty satisfaction.

ulrischa6 days ago
I always feel bad and guilty when coding with ai support or with an agent. This is the new way and things can be done that seemed impossible but I always have a bad feeling
DonHopkins6 days ago
I always feel bad and guilty when coding with emacs, giving me such an unfair advantage over people using vi. This is the old way and things can be done that seemed impossible but I always have a bad feeling for vi users.
QuercusMax6 days ago
I've written at least hundreds of thousands of lines of Java code in my career, possibly over a million. I used to be extremely fast at building new features when I worked on a MLOC Java app I'd architected from the ground up. A huge percentage of the characters in that code were not typed by me, but were generated by my IDE.

Did I have an unfair advantage compared to the guys who were trying to get by using Notepad and the commandline?

lbrito6 days ago
>or they can't figure out how to become profitable after all this.

The AI white pills will argue they already are vastly profitable - although they always, always leave out the small detail of externalities (AI R&D costs and data center-related capex). Of course if you remove the two largest costs, the thing will be profitable.

My intuition is that ultimately the US federal government sustains the whole thing financially, and profitability questions will be dismissed for as long as it continues to do so

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