Short-term boom could lead to a longer-term drought and removal of important works from circulation.

94 points•speckx•7 days ago•130 comments•

130 comments

zirkonit7 days ago
Our family volunteers at a nonprofit that moves a huge number of books. We take donations and run massive charity sales, clearing tens of thousands of books a month. Pricing works like a ladder: you try to sell a book for a couple of bucks, then for a dollar, then by the $5 bag, then for free, and you still end up with thousands of books nobody wants even at no cost. These used to go straight to pulp. Now they go to AI labs for scanning. Would we rather they were read, or at least owned, by someone? Yes. Is scanning better than turning them into toilet paper? Yes, even if only marginally.

I'm sure the Anthropics of the world have shredded the last known copies of plenty of titles. But nobody talks about the last known copies that get pulped every day simply because there are so many books nobody wants and storing them is expensive.

szszrk7 days ago
My wife loves bulk book hauls. Those places that we frequent, work like a literal permanent discount warehouse - books in high shelves, on pallets, everywhere. Often hundreds of issues of the same one.

But there is so many books there that no one want's to read. Hundreds of the same book lying there for months or years.

Same for public book-sharing "libraries" (small shelves that look like bird house, usually in parks etc). People really like them and there are many in my city, but most books there are products of a gone era and a gone mindset. No one want's that even for free.

We were taught respect for books, but not everything is worth preserving.

fakedang6 days ago
A few days back, I spent some time going through a World Book encyclopaedia set that my parents had bought for me when I was 4. It was basically an expensive investment back then into what would turn into a lifelong reading habit.

Most of the information in it is practically worthless today unfortunately - Saddam Hussein still alive, as were Katharine Hepburn and King Hussein of Jordan, no mention of Ceres and Pluto was still a planet, and the Internet and software had barely a mention. Most articles had less information than a standard Wikipedia article.

That being said, the way information was presented in them still outshines anything one may find on the internet today. Even the simple elements - neat diagrams and relevant images, proper sectioning and organization of the text, footnotes to other relevant articles...

Long gone are the days when I would simply take a bowl of ice cream and a volume and just read it end to end.

ghaff7 days ago
I didn't go this year but my local town library has a book sale where books go for something like $10/bag. I donate some books to them throughout the year. There are still a lot of books available on the last or second to last day of the sale. I'm sure a huge number get pulped.
a_shovel6 days ago
A lot of these books are reference titles that are outdated to the point of uselessness and/or weren't that great/interesting when they were new. Not many people have interest in or use for textbooks from the 50s.
laybak7 days ago
I have a similar thought too each time I walk past piles of discount books.

I'm in the camp that perhaps it's healthy to not grasp onto every bit of information. that some artifacts dying a natural death is maybe just the way things are

sly0107 days ago
Well, they could turn the bad faith story into a good faith story by making them available for everyone to download perhaps. (AI companies "saving" old books!) But that would require giving a s*t which they don't and that is the real problem imho.
Aurornis7 days ago
They legally cannot do this.
nightpool6 days ago
Both Anthropic and Internet Archive have gotten sued into oblivion by publishing companies once, there's no way they're going to do something even more flagrantly illegal
icantevenhold7 days ago
Why do they shred them at all instead of donating or selling them again?
quickthrowman7 days ago
A judge ruled it was OK to scan books and save the scanned copy if you shred the physical book afterwards.
andrew_lettuce7 days ago
My understanding is they cut off the binding for scanning. They'd have to resell it donate by the page
patall7 days ago
Can someone explain why the old books could really be relevant. I get the pre-nuclear steel analogy, but why is this relevant given how much more modern texts exist. A few years ago, millions of yahoo groups were erased but now a few thousand books are what is needed to run a successful AI company? I mean, it can barely be about the information in those books (that would be very often outdated), but just for a little more text (with ever less marginal gain), what is the benefit?
Legend24407 days ago
It sounds like it is about the information in the books. The titles they're looking for are all nonfiction. Not everything is on the internet, and just because it's a few years old doesn't mean it's outdated.

Speaking from experience, the information density of published books is a lot higher than most internet text. It's very high quality training data.

The goal here is to have all human knowledge in a single file, which is pretty neat IMO.

newsy-combi7 days ago
The internet basically never delivered on the promise of replacing textbooks or even education as a whole. Wikipedia sucks on many topics, has insane internal politics, and is a tertiary source by design (redigesting blogs and books), whereas textbooks are generally secondary.
ChickeNES7 days ago
> the information density of published books is a lot higher than most internet text

I'm not convinced. I think you are under-weighing the massive volumes of stuff like self-help books, romance novels, etc.

patall6 days ago
I see. So it is much less about 150 year old fiction books, but more about 1980s science literature that was only ever printed five times. That makes a lot more sense than what the public debate seems to be about.
zardo7 days ago
Also the ability to set the training input limit in the past could be useful.
Aurornis7 days ago
> but now a few thousand books are what is needed to run a successful AI company?

They're scanning millions of books.

It's the diversity of text that helps. One of the lessons we've learned is that more training data leads to better models. Even old books have different mixes of word sequences that will improve the model. The returns are diminishing, but when you have the pipeline set up to ingest it you might as well keep adding to the dataset.

hyperhello7 days ago
They are the memories of the productive part of society. You can leaf through them and get the feel of what it was like. You don’t need most of your memories, personality, or core ideals to be productive to the State.
layer87 days ago
Diversity. Modern books with modern content and in modern styles are overrepresented, old ones underrepresented.
mistercheph7 days ago
> why the old books could really be relevant > it can barely be about the information in those books (that would be very often outdated),

LOL, not being rude: have you ever read a book outside of what they forced you to read in school? Most old books are not O'reilly's manuals for Visual Studio 2014, they don't go out of date.

They are interesting to human beings for the same reason they are interesting to the labs. If it was just about quantity of text then the labs could generate text with the prev. gen model and use that alone to scale to the next model, there is something of immeasurable value contained in books (hint: it starts with an i and rhymes with bin formation).

RobotToaster7 days ago
The sad part is, imagine how positive this could be if the scans were made available to the public.
IrishTechie7 days ago
Might add insult to injury for the publishers/authors though?
RobotToaster7 days ago
Maybe for current in print books, but the concern is about rare books being pulped in this process. If a book is rare then it isn't in print, so nobody is making money out of it.
doublerabbit7 days ago
A book, song that has been out in public-domain for more than 10 years, should be downloadable. Even if you were to rebuy the same CD again the amount that the artist received would be a pointless pittance. Why not just let it be free to be enjoyed by all?

OCR Scanned for training, then tossed away or burnt. Great for nature.

rjh297 days ago
Good memories of visiting used bookshops near Kyoto University with stacks upon stacks of obscure literary works and research material. Lots of interesting books about the Japanese language that were never digitized and I always left with 2-3 new books. So I'm not super happy about AI companies hoovering this all up and not making the scans available.
shoo7 days ago
Via google translate:

> It has been discovered that online used bookstores across Japan have been receiving a surge of large orders for books since around August of this year. Interviews with these bookstores reveal reports of "100 books sold per day" and "days where sales have increased fivefold," leading to widespread speculation within the industry that the orders are intended to collect training data for generative AI (artificial intelligence). Further investigation revealed records of over 50 tons of books being exported from Japan to the United States. Is it acceptable for books to be consumed and discarded for AI training?

[...]

> Nippon Television investigated using "Sayari," a tool that analyzes import and export data, and confirmed records that a group company of this major Japanese book distributor exported more than 50 tons of "JAPANESE BOOKS" to the US since last year. Assuming that all the books were heavy hardcovers (calculated at 500 grams), this would amount to the equivalent of 100,000 books.

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