The head of the RAF says the UK faces "unprecedented threats" from adversaries in space, as a new unit is created to defend Britain's satellites.

170 points•thm•7 days ago•213 comments•

213 comments

gorgoiler7 days ago
Presumably when World War 3 kicks off the very first thing each adversary will do is knock out their opponents satellites? These are like flying lightbulbs that shine down usefulness from above, so step one is to cut the lights.

Presumably-squared there is some kind of military backup to survive once the lights (GPS) go dark? Whatever that technology is, why hasn’t it proliferated into civilian life so that we all benefit from a resilient, non-GPS backup?

Perhaps the answer is that every tank has a 10lb inertial navigation gyro or some other thingy in it as a backup, and the platoon around it uses the tank as a moving trig point? In that case I can see it being infeasible to deploy that for civilians.

Perhaps-squared it’s just economics — GPS is cool and cheap now, so why burn profit margin on developing an alternative?

PJDK7 days ago
I think the general assumption is GPS is denied in most combat zones, it's constantly being jammed in and around Ukraine.

For most things the fallback is going to be everything we used to use. Maps, stellar navigation, inertial navigation that sort of thing.

Guided weapons wise, terrain mapping is pretty common for cruise missiles. Storm Shadow, for example uses GPS, terrain and inertial guidance systems. Trident uses inertia and stellar navigation.

As for why it hasn't proliferated into civilian use? Mostly it has its just the old things. You can perfectly well drive your car with a road map and sign posts. Pilots still train to use dead reckoning and beacons. Etc.

xyzzy_plugh7 days ago
Actually it hasn't proliferated into civilian use because the military industrial complex has captured pretty much anything with real accuracy.

I had an old colleague who in a previous life worked on an incredibly accurate positioning system that was effectively a brief case that knew where it was at all times. The story he told was the DoD made them an offer they couldn't refuse, and everything became secret. I'm pretty sure the company in question is still in business.

I'm not trying to say it's not legal but it might not exactly be legal?

stult7 days ago
We also have visual navigation systems that can use satellite imagery to produce guidance packages. They will become increasingly less useful the longer the imagery goes without updates after a Kessler syndrome type event, though. Another strategy, which I believe the Ukrainians have been experimenting with, is scattering small radio beacons throughout the battlespace to provide a network of navigation aids.

In a true Kessler scenario where LEO is denied for an extended period of time, I expect a variation of that strategy is how we would replace GPS for most civilian use cases. Likely by using cell towers to triangulate, possibly enhanced with additional transmitters to improve accuracy and coverage. Pure cell tower triangulation would have much worse coverage than GPS, obviously especially in rural areas where cell service is often already poor, but also anywhere that getting a signal from multiple towers isn't easy or possible. Cell towers are never distant enough to use the relativity-based timing tricks GPS relies on, so multiple signals would be required to triangulate. We'd likely end up with substantially less precise positioning, maybe something more on the order of the 10-20m of error we used to see with GPS before the US stopped limiting civilian access to the deaccuratized version. Cell tower triangulation also obviously doesn't work for aviation or oceanic shipping, where trident-like inertial+stellar nav would probably be the only workable option.

SJC_Hacker7 days ago
GPS is generally jammed close to the target, to varying degrees. For intermediate guidance out of range of jammers it works fairly well
1e1a7 days ago
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERCOM for localization by matching altimeter measurements to a terrain map
louthy7 days ago
I’m sure we’ll go back to beacons [1] here in the UK

”Using fire to signify a message is thousands of years old. The earliest use of beacons in the UK dates back to the medieval period, primarily as a means of communication to warn of impending invasions or other dangers. Positioned on hilltops and along coastlines, these beacons were part of an early warning system signalling the presence of a threat, such as an approaching enemy fleet.

One of the most famous early examples is the network of beacons used during the Spanish Armada in 1588. As around 150 Spanish battleships approached, beacons were lit along the southern coast of England, from Cornwall to London. As a result of this rudimentary but effective system Lord Francis Drake had the time to mobilise the country’s defences and defeat the Spanish fleet before they were able to reach the English shore.”

[1] https://www.paintersforstal.co.uk/news/the-history-of-beacon...

dmoy7 days ago
150 battleships?

Pretty sure the Spanish Armada was <150 total ships, of which only a small subset would be the big galleon things. (And then my knowledge hits a wall, idk what the difference between a galleon and ship-of-the-line/battleship is)

I'm not sure how much to trust the rest of that website.

FridayoLeary7 days ago
I think you mean Sir Francis Drake.
nradov7 days ago
Right, in future conflicts between major countries the satellites will be first casualties. The US military is aware of this and still trains personnel on analog navigation techniques. Inertial navigation works well for some missions and research is underway on alternative technologies. Civil airliners can still navigate without GPS, although this may reduce safety and increase workload.

https://interestingengineering.com/military/us-military-nail...

We're also going to need a prompt launch capability to replace attrition losses. There should be warehouses full of spare navigation, reconnaissance, and communications satellites ready to mount on a reusable booster and launch within hours. Concerns have been raised over a "Kessler syndrome" due to orbital debris but in lower orbits with significant atmospheric drag this won't be a serious problem.

pchristensen7 days ago
Reminds me of in the Avengers - SHIELD couldn't navigate the helicarrier, and Nick Fury said "Is the sun setting? Then put it on our left!"
wahern7 days ago
IIRC, the Navy stopped teaching officers traditional ship navigation methods for awhile, until the series of incredibly stupid incidents drew attention to the lack of basic navigation and piloting skills, then curriculums were partly reverted. Not sure if things have improved much; probably too early to tell.

I doubt officers or crew would ever have to resort to a sextant, but that's besides the point. It's the type of thing that's integral to learning navigation theory and building tacit knowledge that's fundamental to the job.

EDIT: 2016 article discussing restoration of traditional navigation instruction: https://www.npr.org/2016/02/22/467210492/u-s-navy-brings-bac...

conorcleary7 days ago
The truth was the first casualty.
hollerith5 days ago
George Friedman suggests that the reason Washington is going back to the moon is that it is easier to launch satellites into Earth orbit from the moon than from the Earth's surface.
fragmede7 days ago
> Presumably when World War 3 kicks off

That presumes we're not already in it. When historians 100 years from now look back on this period, what's going to be the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand? What's going to be the Reichstag fire of 2027?

nostrademons7 days ago
Russia/Ukraine and Israel/Iran/US are going to be looked at as the precursors to WW3, the same way that the Sino-Japanese War, Spanish Civil War, and Sudetenland Crisis were the precursors to WW2 and the Russo-Japanese War, Moroccan Crisis, and Balkan Wars were the precursors to WW1.
dofm7 days ago
Fiona Hill has said some time back that she believes we are already fighting World War 3 with Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/ng-interactive/2025/may/10/...

FlowingRiver7 days ago
We aren't there yet but one can definitely see the run up in action.
dotBen7 days ago
You may be right, but if that happens the resultant space debris will serve as an additional terrible outcome of any major conflict.

We will have to kiss goodbye to any future space launches, existing satellites are likely to get knocked out and ultimately our frontier space era will grind to a hault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

extraduder_ire7 days ago
You pretty much have to do this to knock out starlink (or similar constellations in future). There's so many currently deployed and they can be launched with such cadence that knocking them all out isn't feasible.
mgaldys47 days ago
In terms of international game theory, this is entirely expected. No action would be the anomaly.
seatac767 days ago
It’s probably trying to disrupt the Russian GPS jamming satellites.

Veritasium did a video on it recently https://youtu.be/tz23G_UXCGA

tim3337 days ago
Vaguely related, apparently the Chinese have built a 20GW microwave weapon maybe to take out the Starlinks when they invade Taiwan. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3342443/chin...
ExoticPearTree7 days ago
I thought after 60,000 feet MSL a country's airspace ends.

So, who's the UK actually attacking?

nradov7 days ago
This is not an attack. The satellites aren't being damaged.
someonebaggy7 days ago
Someone tell that to DDOS
jareklupinski7 days ago
nothing to see here; orbit on
8note7 days ago
UK is under russian attack. same with canada, germany, sweden, etc.

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