358 points•caution•7 days ago•173 comments•

173 comments

romanhn7 days ago
The flagged comments given as examples are exactly the type I don't want to see here. Not because they are wrong (they are not), but because they are boring, low-calorie declarations of obvious that add very little value to the topic at hand. It's like every mention of an iPhone got a comment about poor conditions of Chinese assembly workers. These, and the Musk rants, absolutely belong on threads about those topics, but let's not turn every thread into a holy war - you're just pushing people that already agree with you away.

For the record, I vouched for this thread to keep it from being flagged, but that didn't seem enough. I think it's an interesting discussion.

jjuel7 days ago
But couldn't a bunch of posts that are just coming here to lift up one of Elon's products also be counter productive? You can never tell if someone is genuine when reviewing a product he put out. I think that is a big problem as well.
romanhn7 days ago
Absolutely. That's when I use my dang-given right to flag left and right. Or if that doesn't work, ignore. I don't think I've entered any Grok thread in ages. But I also can't say that I've seen a ton of them, so maybe the ecosystem is working?
jmyeet7 days ago
One thing I've noticed is that people will engage in thread arson to kill submissions they don't agree with. When I see some of these low value comments, I check their comment history and often they have reasonable comments on other things.

So what they're doing is leaving low value comments and then they're probably the same people flagging it as "controversial" or "flamebait" when there wouldn't be any of those things if they didn't leave those comments. It's incredibly bad faith behavior (by some of them, not you to be clear).

We're at the precipice of AI unravelling the fabric of society. Many tech issues now are so consequential that the politics simply cannot be ignored.

I agree about boring comments but that goes well beyond political. Every time I see a comment about how this year's iPhone is "evolutionary not revolutionary" or some variation. It's boring, lazy and pointless.

ianjbutler7 days ago
> I agree about boring comments but that goes well beyond political. Every time I see a comment about how this year's iPhone is "evolutionary not revolutionary" or some variation. It's boring, lazy and pointless.

This little part is the whole thing! Political discussion is really much more interesting than say, product advertisements or corporate announcements. And better aligned with the spirit of curiosity and hacker ethos too.

Why not flag both or neither as "trampling curiosity"? Inconsistency and hypocrisy is worse than any policy or preference could be.

Why no topics tags so that nerds/hackers/curious can sort themselves away from the hustle/biz/finance types? Well.. platforms do not want to empower their users.. they want to herd them and force-feed them and profit from the engagement boost that bad feelings create. And boom!, just like that tech is suddenly political again, now we can all pick a side, cue the cliches, vote with your wallet, if you don't like it leave, make your own why dontcha, and yada yada.

dang7 days ago
> people will engage in thread arson to kill submissions they don't agree with. When I see some of these low value comments, I check their comment history and often they have reasonable comments on other things

I think that's probably overinterpreting. No doubt there's a long tail of weird behavior, but the fat part of the distribution is covered by a simpler fact: humans change when emotions get activated. People who have interesting things to say when their curiosity circuits light up have entirely different things to say when their amygdalas are inflamed.

Edit: their right amygdalas, that is! it isn't clear to me what the left one does but it's a puzzle why everyone says "the amygdala" when we all have two.

hysan7 days ago
> One thing I've noticed is that people will engage in thread arson to kill submissions they don't agree with. When I see some of these low value comments, I check their comment history and often they have reasonable comments on other things.

Interesting to see that others are doing this. I started this habit because I got curious to see what bad/downvoted/dead commenters would say elsewhere and noticed this same pattern. It’s not on all of them (some accounts seem to post comments that get killed in every thread they reply on which makes me think those are troll accounts), but it happens enough that it was noticeable. Not sure how I’d describe this category of user. They aren’t trolls but they are clearly doing this purposefully.

ax7nova6 days ago
Firsthand data point, as of today: I set up a fresh account and immediately learned how sharply the experience differs from a seasoned one. Show HN is blocked site-wide right now (the /showlim notice), a plain story submission of mine was killed in about 15 minutes, and an Ask HN was flagged within 60 seconds of appearing — zero prior history on the account each time.

None of that feels malicious on the flags side; the spam load must be brutal. But the effective rule for a day-1 account is "flagged before read," regardless of what the content actually says, while a month-6 account gets judged on the merits. Worth knowing for anyone lurk-learning the culture: the trust is in the account history, not the individual post.

Mawr6 days ago
> It's like every mention of an iPhone got a comment about poor conditions of Chinese assembly workers.

I would very much like to be reminded of and updated on the current conditions of those workers.

Much in the same way I'd like to be up to date on whether Mr. Musk has ceased to be a nazi. Seems not.

BTW, Anybody know if things have improved any on the Chinese assembly workers front?

archagon7 days ago
I have a hard time imagining a tech forum in my heyday doing anything with a Bill Gates press release other than giving it a giant middle finger.

Musk is several orders of magnitude worse than Gates, yet the HN community cheerfully feeds on his marketing content while flagging dissent.

This is not a forum for “hackers” anymore, if it ever was. OP is completely right.

SirFatty7 days ago
"I think it's an interesting discussion."

Except for comments you want hidden because you think they are "boring" or "low-calorie".

happytoexplain7 days ago
This is a good example of a person observing a community, slotting the whole thing into one of a small handful of political categories based on the relatively tiny proportion of comments that lean one way or another, and then claiming that the community has changed or is hypocritical when it turns out people tend to have more dynamic opinions than that.
7e6 days ago
Yes. Just because this forum is frequented by loud Musk incels doesn’t necessarily color the whole community with some other label. This is a classic forum problem where extremist views are amplified merely by the enthusiasm of the extremists.
llbeansandrice6 days ago
Tfa only spend a small amount of time using grok threads as a case study of the general views and actions of HN though.

I think this assessment is fairly reductive and doesn’t consider that the realm of start up tech is massive, the political affiliations and views of those at YC and the inherent stance that being “apolitical” actually ends up being.

I also feel that HN attempts to avoid these classic forum trappings and in my personal opinion it has failed. Either you are correct and this is a minority of people or it’s not a minority and HN is pervaded by extremists. Both are bad and if HN wants to continue to be good it needs to be solved imo.

kdavis7 days ago
Unfortunately moderated out of existence in 10, 9, 8, 7....
dang7 days ago
Yes in the sense that users flagged it, but not in the sense that moderators penalized it. I didn't see it until someone emailed a couple minutes ago.

The only thing I've done since then is mark the post so it won't be killed by excessive user flags. This means the thread can stay open for new comments.

I'm not going to remove the flags, because they are clearly an authentic community reaction, though of course some users will have the opposite reaction as well; this is normal.

jakobdabo7 days ago
IMHO, for fairness, upvotes should be the vouches countering the flags. I think unless the amount of flags is really significant, they shouldn't have priority over the 117 upvoters (and counting) who are clearly interested to have this discussion here.

My thinking could be naïve, as the algorithms were probably created with the backing of some data and experience, but anyway, I felt like sharing my opinion.

unified1017 days ago
I'm curious - Do you have a reaction to the specfic point of suggestions that were brought to you, per the article? Do you recall specific ones, and if they were considered/deliberated?
GeoAtreides7 days ago
>I'm not going to remove the flags, because they are clearly an authentic community reaction

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

> we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or YC startups are the story, so I've refrained from doing that here.

dleeftink7 days ago
Wouldn't excessive/above average flagging rather indicate a post is controversial/counter narrative enough to warrant longer front page exposure? It certainly seems to have gotten the people going in the short time it was up, and it's not a secret that early vocal users can be quite generous with the flag button.
archagon7 days ago
Some community reactions are considered more authentic than others, it would seem.

I’ve seen so many shit articles and corporate announcements manually unflagged by the mods over the years. (Here’s a recent one, flagged to death very quickly before miraculously being resurrected: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49602728) An explanation is rarely given.

jswelker7 days ago
Very apropos is this same author's post from a few years ago where they literally and explicitly support corporate censorship, albeit when that censorship was coming from a lefty perspective.

> Nevertheless, the system as it exists today produces outcomes which approximate both rationality and justice, and I do not stand in opposition to the increased application of private censorship under the current system, flawed though it may be.

https://drewdevault.com/blog/Should-private-platforms-engage...

Huarache16 days ago
Agreed, this article reeks of partisan seething behind a veneer of feigned professionality. I haven't seen much of Grok here anyway, so this feels extremely overly dramatic.

It feels like someone was mad that HN isn't constantly reinforcing Reddit tier groupthink.

chme3 days ago
> Very apropos is this same author's post from a few years ago where they literally and explicitly support corporate censorship, albeit when that censorship was coming from a lefty perspective.

I am fine with censoring opinions of the intolerant right wing. IMO antidemocratic opinions shouldn't be given a platform. Tolerant people shouldn't tolerate the intolerant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

jswelker3 days ago
That's great until someone else with a different definition of intolerance is in control.
baddie_twoshoes7 days ago
This is almost comically backwards. HN is very pro-union, like reddit. In fact, it's pretty much the same users and political opinions as reddit.

It's funny he mentioned the grok discussion. The other day I saw grok got some new release, and although I don't use it, I was curious whether it is any good, and was pleasantly surprised people were actually discussing it and not all running to the keyboard to see who could get their EM comments in first. Like they really cleaned up the place.

This article complains that all their political comments got removed for calling Elon 'fascist', 'nazi' etc. - yes, that's the point; your useless, political opinions nobody else wants to hear, get removed.

The article is practically a meme, using every buzzword imaginable. Racism, sexism, nazi, hate, bigotry, wokeness, etc., they're all there. The person who wrote this article is practically an NPC.

jmyeet7 days ago
[flagged]
econ7 days ago
I see a futuristics ban on twitter where the reason stated was that user got grok to say something obvious.

Like Facebook (but worse) they barely allow users to interact. The primary goal is to build profiles for other purposes.

freeli7 days ago
Here's a great example (and I don't mean to pick on you personally, jmyeet).

You wrote "Elon "Sieg Heil"ed twice on national TV." as if it were undisputed fact. This "fact" been repeated here to the extent that "only Nazis could have interpreted it differently" is the default.

Well, I interpreted it differently. It was an (admittedly inartful) attempt to extend his "heart" to the crowd. This is further supported by his spoken words at the time of the supposed salute: "My heart goes out to you."

Perhaps I just like to assume innocence as opposed to malevolence, but this explanation makes sense to me. Elon isn't the most effective public speaker, so it's entirely reasonable to me that he was just trying to mime what he was saying.

You're welcome to disagree, but the fact that folks here just uncritically repeat "Elon is a Nazi; he even saluted" without any pushback is another example of the symptoms I describe in my earlier comment.

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