282 points•Danhale93•8 days ago•340 comments•

340 comments

cmiles88 days ago
The challenge in the US is that the best and brightest increasingly have no interest in entering the medical profession. The debt, crazy years of minimum income, all to let an insurance company admin dictate your every move and while more and more physicians become a labor pool for PE healthcare tracked with metrics fit for warehouse workers (edit: and that’s not OK in a warehouse either). All to earn a decent income but no longer the top of the market. A decent mid-level developer or tech executive makes more than nearly all physicians. No sane top performing talent would dive head first into that mess.

There are exceptions of course but when my brother was considering medical school he visited about 10 different top physicians to seek input and advice and nearly all said if given a Time Machine they wouldn’t do it all over again. That was a real wake up call.

If you go into medicine as a business entrepreneur and build a successful medical business then there’s opportunities for one to still taste some of the glory of the medical profession that once was. Outside that it’s basically a reasonably well paid life of indentured servitude. Yes you’re “helping people” but that only carries you so far which is why so many just burn out and leave.

Massive reform is needed but the powers that be between the AMA and insurance companies seem unlikely to let that change happen unless it’s forced on them by Congress, and that too seems unlikely for now. Something more alike to an apprenticeship model where one grows up from EMT, to nurse, to physician fits the current business model much better than trying to preserve the old world “Officer vs enlisted” model where folks enter the profession directly as officers (physicians).

ipaddr8 days ago
"decent mid-level developer or tech executive makes more than nearly all physicians"

That's no where near true for a mid level developer or most tech execs or most senior developers. If you exclude faangs a top developer doesn't make as much as a doctor.

Kokouane7 days ago
I think the problem is that physicians are self-selected to be highly intelligent and driven individuals. Med school is not at all a walk in the park, and is very competitive.

You cannot compare the median physician who endured the years of grueling med school and residency to an average developer. FAANG is probably a more apt comparison.

cmiles88 days ago
You need to consider the economic cost of delayed earnings, which is massive for the physician, and the higher pay later typically doesn’t make up for the massive debt and low pay early on. It’s not just about a point in time salary sizing contest. Earning little to nothing early in one’s career creates a massive net worth void to fill.
Aurornis7 days ago
I agree, but it’s amazing how many times I’ve heard variations of this repeated as truth.

Developer compensation talk always gets biased toward top companies and high cost areas. The median developer or even top 10% developer isn’t living in the Bay Area working at FAANG, but that’s what gets talked about.

the__alchemist7 days ago
Yea; not even close in the USA. There are exceptions like SV high-salaried tech jobs compared to pediatrician, but generally MDs make much more than software engineers and similar.
SR2Z7 days ago
It is unfortunately true. Sr/Staff making a tech salary outearns all but the most specialized doctors. Even if you exclude FAANG that's true (other companies have to offer FAANG salaries to get FAANG talent).

You have to be living in a VHCOL to get that, but if you make >$300k TC you are outearning most doctors.

bryanlarsen7 days ago
If this was true competition for med school spots would be a lot lower. On the contrary it's getting harder: you now basically need a 4.0 to get in.

Some of the best and brightest definitely are getting discouraged, I too have similar personal anecdotes from my daughter's peers. But anecdote does not necessarily correspond to data. Competition for spots is the data.

> burn out and leave.

Here the data definitely supports your argument. Doctors are leaving the industry at far younger ages than they did in the past.

camel_Snake7 days ago
Med school applications have declined for 3 years in a row, though that rate itself is declining and could be a side effect of COVID

https://www.aamc.org/news/medical-school-enrollment-reaches-...

sebmellen7 days ago
Something like 17 out of the best 20 jobs by median pay in the U.S. are physicians, just various subspecialties. I guarantee you that people in medicine are incredibly driven and bright. You're just not exposed to them and the training they go through.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/highest-paying.htm

zinodaur8 days ago
> metrics fit for warehouse workers

Maybe no one should be tortured by those metrics

cmiles87 days ago
Yes, poorly worded on my part. Wasn’t intending to suggest it was ok to do that to a warehouse workers either, just that this is how physicians are being treated today (but neither is OK).
recursivedoubts8 days ago
Thank you.
nradov7 days ago
I'm not here to defend the AMA but they have very little power over the lives of working physicians. While they do define the CPT code system used on most insurance claims they don't control which procedures are authorized or how much anyone gets paid. The real abrasion has come from health system administrators imposing additional rules and paperwork that waste physician time without doing anything to improve care quality.
estearum8 days ago
(speaking from US): The reality is we need more doctors. A lot more.

There's no solution other than training a lot, lot, lot, lot more doctors.

Their salaries need to be lower, training needs to be cheaper and faster, and we need a lot more of them.

rolisz8 days ago
Are you sure you can find that many more doctors? That they'll be any good?

Speaking from Romania: here medicine is prestigious. So many parents push their kids towards medicine. There's a glut of newly minted doctors every year, but rumour has it that the quality drops every year. Sure, they pass the exams and residency and what not, but... They're just not into medicine as much.

Do you want to get treated by such a person?

This year I had to go to a neurologist. I went to one locally, they dismissed me in 5 minutes, told me to take some vitamins basically. Went to another one in a much bigger city, they talked to me for an hour, ordered a ton of tests.

Would it help if we get a lot more of the first kind of doctors?

1980phipsi8 days ago
"Are you sure you can find that many more doctors? That they'll be any good? Speaking from Romania: ..."

The prior post was specifically talking about the US. (I assure you, arrogant dismissive doctors are also a thing in the US)

In the US, there are a number of things that artificially increase the barriers to becoming a doctor.

1) You typically need a four year college degree to apply to medical school

2) Medical schools are accredited by the AMA, which is controlled by doctors. The AMA makes it very difficult to start a new MD-granting medical school.

3) Medical school in the US is very competitive to get in. They are likely turning away a lot of people who could complete the degree.

4) Since 1997, the federal government has a fixed number of Medicare (Medicare is a federal health insurance program for people over 65) supported residency positions. That number was basically flat for 25 years. We lost about 20% per capita of doctors being trained with support from this program. The caveat to this is that the total number of residents per capita has increased over time, particularly the past 15 years or so. My understanding is that they are less likely to be fully funded, so they spend more money getting trained, and then have higher students loans (on average graduating with debt above 200k going back to the late 2000s) that they need to pay off, so they charge more.

And you can add to this that it can be very difficult to be a doctor in another country and come to the US to practice here.

adrianN8 days ago
I'd like not to have to wait for three months to see a doctor to prescribe me the routine treatment for my routine illness, so yes, more mediocre doctors would be good for me. It would also unburden the doctors who are "really into medicine" so that they could spend their time on more difficult cases.
TeMPOraL8 days ago
Hate to be cynical, but going by the stories a doctor in my personal circles tells me, "talked to me for an hour, ordered a ton of tests" could be more about billing the national healthcare fund for many tests, that may not be most useful, but carry best margins for the facility.

In my country, there's a big feud between cardiologists and radiologists right now, big enough to be a regular topic in national media. Inside sources tell me it has nothing to do with quality of care, and is entirely about the march of technology allowing radiologists to perform some diagnostics that previously required cardiological procedures, and those procedures happened to be the major funding source for the cardiology departments.

elil178 days ago
You get the same problems in the US with the attitudes of doctors.

In the US, medical school is extremely expensive (like $400,000 expensive). There are many people who are excellent doctors who are just priced out of the profession. If we could make medical school less expensive (by subsidizing it and by reducing the amount of instruction), we would probably get many more excellent doctors.

account428 days ago
> Would it help if we get a lot more of the first kind of doctors?

Hard to tell when you don't let us know which of those doctors ended up solving the issues that made you seek a doctor.

Dismissive doctors are bad but so are those that waste your time and risk complications from unnecessary invasive tests.

gww8 days ago
I think one issue is that the admissions for medicine are getting harder and harder. In many places you practically need a 4.0.GPA, volunteer work, great mcat scores, research experience, sometimes a post grad degree like an MSc and PhD etc. This selects for highly competitive and intense personalities that are not always suited for every medicine specialty. Most of them don't want to go into family medicine and pediatrics because it's more work, less money, less prestige etc. The friends I had who wanted to go into family medicine couldn't because of the admission requirements. Their only alternative was to have family money to pay for medical school in places like Ireland.

Edit: I should have mentioned that pediatrics and family medicine represent a large proportion of available residency spots each year and are rarely full.

ossicones8 days ago
The American Medical Association would sooner let the whole thing burn than allow that to happen
sarchertech8 days ago
The bottleneck is funding for residents and the AMA has been lobbying for more resident slots for nearly 30 years.
askari018 days ago
sooner or later whole world(west) is going to hire more doc at lower(not as high as it is right now) salary from East(asia). they might lower the barrier to entry. same would happen in medicine the causes are inflation, economic conditions and poor health system.
joenot4438 days ago
This is the bottleneck, right?

I hear people say "we need more doctors" all the time. It would seem to me, the people deciding how many new doctors we train per year, are doctors. Their pay is proportionate to their scarcity, if we had 5x as many doctors, existing doctors would make far less.

Imagine if existing software engineers got to decide how many juniors entered our profession each year. I think things would look very, very different.

khalic8 days ago
I'm not sure about the salaries. Vocation-motivated people are already doing it. The rest needs a good reason to put their entire life, quite literally, into one single purpose. It's one of those professions that requires a complete dedication of free time, youth, health, mind, etc.
pajamasam8 days ago
If there are more doctors, it would require less of each one's time though.
kolla8 days ago
It does not require more than your standard 8-17. Know tons of doctors that work the same hours as I do and spend their free time the way I do.
sarchertech8 days ago
We already have a system for cheaper doctors.

It’s called physicians assistants and nurse practitioners. They are essentially exactly what’s you’re talking about. They make less and they have less training.

xadhominemx8 days ago
Exactly! I suspect the parent commenter does not interact much with the US healthcare system.
halJordan7 days ago
The over reliance on PAs and NPs are very much a part of the problem.
lll-o-lll8 days ago
> Doctors are caught in a web of business, no longer a noble vocation. The altruism of young doctors have been replaced by the shackles of efficiency, productivity and key performance indicators.

And later

> To some hospitals and their business, I’m not a Surgeon. I’m just an employee. Overworked, burned out, replaceable. The noble call to Medicine has been suffocated by the bureaucratic force exerting itself as the medical industry.

How much of the world has gone this way? Feels like there is something sick deep down in society that is manifesting itself as “you are not a human, you’re a set of metrics”.

Seems like this aspect could have been written by an Academic, a designer, certainly a software developer. The debasement of human dignity.

vladms7 days ago
I think previously it was at least as bad. For hundreds of years slavery was fine. Killing people for believing into one thing or another (witchcraft, different religions, etc). Making people kill each other because the ruler says so. And many others.

Sure, we are not an ideal society and over relying on metrics is bad, but it is HARD to decide how we best use the resources to improve the world, and everybody has an opinion.

Schlagbohrer7 days ago
Hands you a copy of Volume 1 of Karl Marx's "Capital"

If only someone had written an explanation of this effect 170 years ago...

SubmarineClub7 days ago
It’s hilarious to me that, according to Marxists, we’ve now been in ‘late-stage capitalism’ for longer than Communism even managed to exist, but they still keep hawking a 200 year old book as the answer to everything.
pedrosuave8 days ago
I see a lot of comments that we need more doctors to be able to pay doctors less. There are of course exceptions but I really don't think 300k a year is unreasonable when coming out with nearly 600k in debt in a field with such high burn out and liability risk.

Unlike salary position that 300k, at least in my field, is all via private equity and we are all independent contractors--meaning does not include any vacation, any paid time off, any sick days, any retirement or medical care or insurance of any kind.

I have not seen a raise since I started which was prior to covid. I'm not saying I need a raise I am well paid but again to be 500k in debt with zero benefits and I see on Reddit buckees managers or UPS /fed ex drivers making 150 to 200k with benefits and the ability to call out sick and the ability to not lose everything because of a single case where you follow standard practices or guidelines followed around the country but something bad still happens.

I go to work everyday with the understanding that the majority of my colleagues have been sued and even if not career ending the stress is enormous. At work I wear a tracker so that every fart and cough and patent interaction can be tracked. A VIP club of patients that donates to the hospital can ruin me with some bad reviews. A stray comment about poor care by an ems crew can end my career (as they bring the hospitals patients).

I don't believe doctors are overpaid and we need more to bring their pay down. A patient will get billed 2000 dollars if they ask for a burrito out front in triage, walk in, are told by me that Taco Bell is across the street, and they promptly walk out without a single test done.

On the other hand I may see sixty people in a busy night which require procedures such as being intubated and put on a ventilator, fractures being reduced , etc.

A major problem is private equity in medicine. Everyone should be focused on removing these groups which skim money off everyone both doctors and patients included. Even if the argument that somehow their efficiency increases result in extra money to the system they can feed on there is no reason why hospitals can't group up and also be efficient and cut them out and pass down savings to the customer or not overwork us docs or treat us like expendable McDonald's employees. The lack of working directly for the hospital there is no metric for skill or seniority or anything like that you are an expendible piece of meat/fall guy that they load down with as many mid level providers as they can get away with

pedrosuave7 days ago
To clarify I misspoke.

I understand the point is not getting more doctors to pay doctors less.

However when people mention how getting more doctors will reduce physician pay naturally the argument they are putting forth is that somehow physician pay in America is higher than it should be.

That consumers are being gouged on scarcity. That physician pay is currently a "problem" that could be remedied if there was sufficient workforce and physician pay is responsible for your astronomical bills.

I do not think the salary has as much room to go down as people think given the 500k plus debt , years of schooling and residency , pressures of working the job , enormous liability , the fact the pay includes zero sick days /vacations , paid days of any kind , benefits, retirement, insurance etc.

My argument as a physician is this is the least of the problems in healthcare financing and your bill.

The two thousand dollar charge for waking into the hospital then promptly walking out was a real world example --not an exaggeration. The amount charged for that one patient would pay my wage for the night and it was 1 in 60 and took approximately 5 minutes. You can only imagine what the other 59 patients getting critical life saving procedures , CPR , etc are getting billed.

If anything reading this story made me think maybe physicians should be taken care of better and have vacations , time off , etc instead of everything being designed to grind them down.

seszett7 days ago
> I see a lot of comments that we need more doctors to be able to pay doctors less. There are of course exceptions but I really don't think 300k a year is unreasonable when coming out with nearly 600k in debt in a field with such high burn out and liability risk.

Why would a doctor start their career with a 600k debt, though? THAT is the problem.

In Belgium you can start your career as a doctor with zero debt and around 75k salary, working 35 hours per week. It's comfortable and lets you live a normal life.

We still have a shortage of doctors though like everywhere else, regardless of how well or how bad doctors are paid.

tossstone7 days ago
Complicated question, speaking from the U.S. There are huge disparities in pay depending on specialties, and some specialties earn frankly far too much approaching $750,000 - $1,000,000 annual salary in some markets (think orthopaedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, interventional rediologists). The chance at obscenely high compensation convinces students to accrue huge amounts of debt and take on enormous personal risk. Meanwhile, few actually make it into these specialties and many end up in specialties with much lower compensation such as family and internal medicine. It's become a very high stakes system where the participants make huge sacrifices and take on enormous risk for enormous gain
david-gpu8 days ago
The article is written by an Australian doctor, living in Australia, speaking about the death of a doctor who committed suicide in Brisbane.

Their work and living conditions are probably quite different from those of American doctors.

JKCalhoun8 days ago
I wonder if "Dcotor" ought not be a short career—one where you transition out after, say, two decades. Perhaps they establish a role of mentor within hospitals where "aged-out" doctors can be a part of new surgeons surgeries.

I know, never gonna happen.

paulcole8 days ago
> I wonder if "Dcotor" ought not be a short career—one where you transition out after, say, two decades

In the US if a doctor is remotely competent with money then this is very achievable.

intrasight8 days ago
Same with politicians.
jghn8 days ago
> we need more doctors to be able to pay doctors less

I don't think this is really the point being raised. We need to relax the artificial constraints on the number of doctors. This would lead to more doctors. There's likely to be a side effect which is that doctors get paid less.

While the net effect is doctors getting paid less, it's not the reason.

matheusmoreira7 days ago
> Everyday, there’s a new form, a new guideline, a new protocol, a new health software, a new policy all dictating, restricting and modifying clinician activities.

I felt this one... Takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.

The entire loss of support section is way too real. I'd almost forgotten what that sort of institutional chaos felt like. So glad I don't work in a hospital anymore. It kills you inside.

Loss of meaning was different for me. The author seems to long for patient contact... Just as easy to lose meaning there, I'm afraid. It's just as tiresome but in a different way. The repetitiveness can easily lead to a sort of depersonalization.

> What I am realising is that today in modern medicine, a doctor is just one of the many commodities in this complex industry.

This could be a fourth chapter all of its own: loss of autonomy.

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