By deciphering the molecular signatures of millions of mouse cells, Junyue Cao has found that aging is not haphazard wear and tear but rather a “remodeling of the cell society.”

82 points•elo2000•8 days ago•88 comments•

88 comments

anonporridge8 days ago
It's probably a bit of both.

Maintaining order and fighting entropy is hard, but also planned obsolescence is a good thing for systemic resilience.

You have to regularly clear out the old for at least two reasons...

a) keep the process of creating new things well exercised. "We can't build that anymore. We don't know how." A factory that builds things that last too long eventually goes out of business.

b) prevent old things from monopolizing resources due to more time to compound interest. Otherwise, you end up with Saturn devouring his son.

palmotea8 days ago
> a) keep the process of creating new things well exercised. "We can't build that anymore. We don't know how." A factory that builds things that last too long eventually goes out of business.

In an properly-managed world (not ours), we'd figure out how many factories we need to keep the process knowledge fresh and safe, then have those factories build items that last exactly as long to keep their production steady. Then other factories could make other things. End result: more and better stuff.

Like instead of 1000 washing machine factories that make washing machines that last 5 years each, have 100 that make washing machines that last 50 years.

Instead we get hyper-fast planned obsolescence, pushing the frontier of unreliability and waste creation, so number can go up this quarter.

anonporridge7 days ago
The world you imagine is a fragile one.

Waste and inefficiency is the cost of anti-fragility that's necessary to not go extinct when the unexpected happens.

Your world would also slow down innovation. Those old machines were much more energy hungry and only rapid iteration has made them dramatically more efficient.

fsckboy8 days ago
most of human evolutionary history was hunter gatherer and survival was subsistence level, and your arguments don't work.

birthing was necessary at least to maintain population, but preferably to expand it. it's only now that we consider "too many" a possibility, and we didn't evolve for this moment.

our history does not show potentially perpetually compounding gains that our children would evolutionarily need a genetic defense against, we already had looting, stealing, and killing.

I think the answer, if there is a programmed obsolesence, is because the genetic admixing of the next generation through sexual reproduction is so useful and important.

butlike8 days ago
I never considered the compound interest angle. This helps me reason about my life; thanks!
curuinor8 days ago
because of the immortality of financial accounts and such, it's basically what's happened to the economy. ancient 100, 200-year-old trusts choking the viability of laborers doing anything and so on. especially bad in europe.
elo20008 days ago
Honestly, I wasn't expecting mythology to be linked to this discovery. But you did it very nicely.
aeturnum8 days ago
There are animals that don't "age"[1] so of course it's programmed. There's a balance between how often you want to recombine genetics and how long you want to be able to remember. It seems like a better system would have humans decline differently (i.e. no dementia) but having people grow old is almost certainly beneficial to the species.

[1] Their risk of death does not increase after reaching adulthood. I.e. every year after adulthood has the same risk of unexpected death. Humans and other animals that age have their risks of death climb in "old" age.

noosphr8 days ago
The animals are wildly simple however. It may well be that ageless is only possible before you develop a brain.
aeturnum8 days ago
Naked mole rats are social animals that live in colonies. There are differences of course, but I do not think the evidence suggests that aging is a 'requirement' for complexity. The simplest explanation is that aging is an evolutionary adaption that gives species that age an advantage. Human cells obviously possess the potential to persist past their programmed deaths - that's what cancer is. So I think it's obvious there are no biological limits to us stopping our physical age at whatever stage we want - but I'm equally sure that would involve changes to the experience of being human we may not like (perhaps being in the body of a 20 year old means being in the mind of a 20 year old, for instance).
manyatoms8 days ago
What are examples of non-aging animals?
gavinray8 days ago
The Immortal Jellyfish, and functionally the naked mole rat.
emptybits8 days ago
IANAB but lobsters are worth a look. They apparently do not get slower or weaker or even lose fertility as they age. And apparently Greenland Sharks might live for 300-500 years, are immune to cancers, and their DNA can repair itself. Maybe leaving the ocean was our ancestors' mistake.
jvanderbot8 days ago
I've always thought eternal life would steal from the next generation if resources are scarce. If your reaction times, intelligence, etc are always good, and your experience and memories get better, it just seems like you'd out compete your kids and younger cohorts. All well and good but basically stops genetic turnover that got us to this point.

OTOH, you'd accumulate uncurable disease, injuries, etc as well. Maybe you become a disease resevoir inside your own growing family. Or you pass on as-yet-unknown genetic anomalies that are unhelpful, and you do so forever.

Granted that's a modern take, and in particular a modern rpg-like take. Regardless though getting rid of oldies seems like a reasonable way to move a species forward if natural selection is driving "forward".

mjburgess8 days ago
OTOH a vast amount of mayhem and madness arises just from each generation's memory being wiped clean. Within three or four generations the earth lacks any sense of what risks came before it, and repeats the same stupid stuff.

If we were managed by the interwar generation, little of what's happening today would be happening today.

anonporridge8 days ago
That goes both ways.

Lack of experience is critical for risk taking. Even great successes like Jensen Huang have said that if they knew how hard it was going to be, he wouldn't choose his path again.

Memory blocks you from experimentation as much as it protects you from making recurrent mistakes. A species or civilization with too much memory will eventually wither away towards complete inaction and decay.

pixl978 days ago
>the earth lacks any sense of what risks came before it

The earth is a bad term here, how about human civilization?

Your DNA, epigenetics, and a ton of other subconscious intelligent processes are well aware of the risks and contain a massive set of tools to overcome them.

The problem? Many of these tools have to run from zero in an egg to work in the changing environment.

_doctor_love8 days ago
> If we were managed by the interwar generation, little of what's happening today would be happening today.

Doubtful. They were the ones who created the world we live in today.

moffkalast8 days ago
OTOH same is true for wiping clean habits, prejudices and deeply held wrong beliefs. It's said that science advances one funeral at a time.

If we were managed by the colonial generation, slavery and segregation would still be the norm, only rich white men would be able to vote and a king would still have the final say.

pavel_lishin8 days ago
> If your reaction times, intelligence, etc are always good, and your experience and memories get better, it just seems like you'd out compete your kids and younger cohorts.

On the other hand, always being around as a sort of Protector to protect your kids seems like it would generally be good for your genes. (Of course, you'd have to fight off other Protectors who are doing the same...)

Kirth8 days ago
Finally mankind can return to it's intended 3-phase form of existence as described by Niven
jvanderbot8 days ago
Right, but should your kids get your protection? You can protect them to adulthood now, even your grandkids.

But 1000 generations of unassailable, un-evolving, 40IQ lions doesn't get you to the galaxy.

Hey, maybe this is the fermi paradox.

noosphr8 days ago
This is where being a real parent vs a theoretical one makes a huge difference to your take. After seeing how much damage to their kids people adapted _their_ childhood do, I've started to think that humans should die around 40 with reproduction age being between 10 to 20 - like most other great apes. It's only in increadibly stable environments that waiting for as long as we do for children that it makes sence.

How this number is going to change in the future with exponential growth in the environment is left as an exercise to the reader.

SoftTalker8 days ago
Not if that protection ended up making your offspring weaker. Some adversity is necessary to develop resilience and self-sufficiency.
mnem8 days ago
One's kids may disagree.
ainch8 days ago
There's the saying in science that progress happens 'one funeral at a time,' but that's not because older scientists are less intelligent - it's more like they begin to intellectually ossify. Or in the arts, the critics that rejected Matisse's 'Woman With a Hat' weren't stupid, but their thinking had stagnated.

I think we underrate the value of a fresh perspective. People living longer lifespans would dilute that benefit, imo. Sidenote: this is also an underrated issue with LLMs and their application to science - collapsing to single modes of thought over time.

card_zero8 days ago
Could you all stop plotting to kill me off >:(
bitwize8 days ago
Sounds like an argument for pacing the frontier of geriatric medicine.
_doctor_love8 days ago
> getting rid of oldies seems like a reasonable way to move a species forward

This is the real feature of aging, death, and dying. Progress is measured in funerals, not years. If everyone lived forever, nothing would ever change.

bilbo0s8 days ago
>nothing would ever change

Including our fundamental biology.

If we want a chance at improved, more resilient biology, aging and death have to be a part of that.

2001zhaozhao8 days ago
A big issue with the programmed aging theory is that while we already have pretty good evidence from a biological perspective of a programmed aging clock, it is harder to find an evolutionary justification for it.

I don't know how the antagonistic pleiotropy theory is doing. If true it would be a satisfactory explanation from an evolutionary point of view but I recall that it had some problems.

Otherwise I don't find the other evolutionary explanations of programmed aging to be satisfactory, especially when you consider that genes are selfish and act on the individual rather than population level.

Perhaps reproductive aging (egg quality) is the ultimate limiter, and then overall aging is adaptive downstream of that because hunter-gatherer families benefit (in terms of evolutionary fitness) from fewer old people to increase the percentage of people at reproductive age? That would fit the modern evidence of early egg freezing significantly increasing reproductive success in older women, showing that the problem of fertility decline by age is primarily cellular.

Or perhaps the aging mechanism is leftover from pre-human ancestry and there simply wasn't enough time in our evolutionary history for humans to evolve longer lifespans, maybe because it's slightly helpful but not nearly as helpful as other traits like intelligence, and lifespan is hard to improve via genetic adaptation due to bottleneck effects?

robocat6 days ago
Great article on programmed aging as a tradeoff of telomeres versus cancer: https://dynomight.substack.com/p/liver
rglover8 days ago
Reminds me of a thought I had about galaxies being instance runs while writing Github actions to build database binaries.

Each galaxy and any planets/life it contains are just artifacts of an "existence run." That's why life feels like a simulation so often (and human history repeats itself): we're inside of an organic (human word) "program" that's trying to perfect itself by running similar, but consistently tweaked "logic" over and over. Things like evolution are just an algorithm embedded in the system.

If the theory discussed in the article is correct, then aging is (in the scope of the above thought) just one program among several that we interpret as existence/life.

Just a daydream but fun to think about.

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