316 points•verdagon•9 days ago•52 comments•

52 comments

O3marchnative6 days ago
This is quite amazing. Fearless SIMD is what finally allowed my FFT crate, PhastFT, to run on stable Rust [0]. PhastFT previously depended on Rust’s std::simd (as well as multiversion), which still requires nightly [1].

One of the main contributors to v1.0 of fearless_simd started out by helping me evaluate portable SIMD crates for PhastFT. Once we landed on fearless_simd, he ported PhastFT from std::simd to fearless_simd. We did find that more functionality was needed than fearless_simd offered at the time. So, he started contributing significantly to fearless_simd. It’s really rewarding to see how working on a hobby open source project can help improve the Rust ecosystem.

[0] https://github.com/smu160/PhastFT

[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/simd/index.html

arijun6 days ago
How do you compare your experience with fearless_simd vs std::simd? Besides the nightly aspect of course.
modulovalue6 days ago
I’m currently working on adding better SIMD support to Dart (https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/64170) and I have a question for the author or others here.

Does Rust or any other language support customizing the compiler so that interprocedural analyses can track custom subsets of, for example, doubles so that the compiler can choose the most efficient instruction sequence for example for min/max? If we know a double is never NaN then we can emit only one instruction on x86, but have to emit one more on arm64. If we know a double is never zero and never NaN, we can emit a single instruction on both.

This whole conversation between relaxed SIMD and deterministic SIMD seems to only exist because our compilers are not smart enough and/or their whole program analyses don’t support any plugin-like capabilities.

There are other examples where if we know a SIMD bitmask is canonical (all 1s per lane) then we can implement horizontal reductions more efficiently. This is very niche and I doubt that any language supports interprocedural analyses with such a rich domain, so it feels like a hole in the programming language space.

VorpalWay6 days ago
Not yet that I know of, though perhaps LLVM might be able to infer simple cases (when loading from a known constant for example).

Pattern types could potentially maybe in the future allow for the compiler to know more details though. They are a nightly feature, and afaik only for enums, integers and pointers so far. The idea would be that you can define a custom type such as "an integer between 7 and 45" and everything else become niches for niche optimisation (e.g. for `Option<MyFunkyInt>` some of those impossible values would be used to represent the None case of the wrapping Option).

But I could envisage a future in which you could say "f64 without NaN" which would both make those available for niches and potentially tell LLVM about this. However, we are very far from any of that currently. And it might not be what you want, since you would need to add checks when you perform operations to ensure the value doesn't suddenly become a NaN. Which is way more complicated than ensuring integers don't become, say, zero. It will likely be much harder to optimise away the checks.

borodi6 days ago
LLVM has range flags and things like nnan that could in theory be used to replace a minimum intrinsic into a minimumnum (iirc x86 has a instruction for the latter but not the former) https://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#floating-point-min-max-in... I'm not sure if the optimizations use this but in theory they could
0xdeafbeef6 days ago
Sounds similar to https://mlir.llvm.org/
modulovalue6 days ago
> Pattern types could potentially maybe in the future allow for the compiler to know more details though.

Thanks, I’ll take a look!

athrowaway3z6 days ago
Last time i checked; no.

But I suspect you're overvaluing the potential savings. Knowing when a float is 0.0 or NaN beforehand is almost entirely impossible, except for the most trivial of cases - like when you first initialize a variable or first enter a loop. Everything after that is very hard or impossible with floats as they are.

Those cases can be const folded at compile time.

Those cases are never a measurable bottleneck.

The closest thing I know of in the realm of the optimization you're curious about is Rust NonZero* variants, but they're used for enum compression afaik.

modulovalue6 days ago
I’m not sure I agree on the impossible part, I feel like a sufficiently smart interprocedural analysis that also implements range analysis interprocedurally could prove a lot to where it becomes useful.

I guess what I would like to see is SIMD libraries being able to confidently say nobody needs to use intrinsics (or differentiate between relaxed/normal SIMD on the user API level) because the language + high level SIMD APIs are smart enough to choose the right implementation.

IIRC IEEE min/max with proper NaN handling needs 8 instructions on x86 vs 1 on arm64 I find it very sad that we apparently haven’t really solved that yet without forcing the user to use different APIs.

JonChesterfield6 days ago
Customized compiler isn't really a thing in most languages. Because it implies changing the language, and everyone agreeing on what the language is was sort of the point of the whole exercise. Hence all the worries about macros.

SBCL has the right hooks. Jai probably does as well. You could build your own thing on LLVM relatively easily - so Rust _could_ do it if you gave it sufficient access to the compiler, but so could C++ or D.

SIMD bitmasks being ~0 instead of (00000001)+ is common and useful, but there's an annoying language design question in there about what type comparisons between vectors should be (if you don't have a <N x i1> as a type, say because you liked C too much). Shout out to std::vector<bool>.

There is probably interesting work in mojo for this. The library being in MLIR strongly encourages taking that sort of approach. I haven't looked at their implementation though. Happy hacking!

adgjlsfhk16 days ago
Julia also does this quite often (both using macros to write DSLs or minor modifications, and packages like GPU backends that hook the compiler functionality to compile direct GPU assembly kernels.
barchar5 days ago
LLVM does do bit pattern tracking. Referred to as value tracking or known bits analysis.

I’m not sure if the vectorizer uses it a ton, but isel does (though maybe not heavily for vector ops)

Archit3ch6 days ago
Possible in Julia without patching the compiler with a compiler extension package.
Dr_Emann6 days ago
Have been really happy with Fearless simd, I used it to write [memchr-n][1], which searches for instances of an arbitrary set of bytes, with simd, which actually tends to [outperform][2] the rust memchr crate, even for sets of 1-3 bytes (what's supported by memchr)

[1]: https://github.com/Dr-Emann/memchr_n#performance [2]: https://github.com/BurntSushi/memchr/pull/241

O3marchnative6 days ago
Out of curiosity, did you try out any other portable simd crates before landing on fearless simd?
Dr_Emann6 days ago
Kinda: Early last year, I had done a little work with direct intrinsics first, then investigated std::simd, but ran into the issue of swizzle_dyn needing to re-compile std. It was actually when I ran across https://shnatsel.github.io/improving-std-simd-swizzle-dyn/ that got me back into it.
dang6 days ago
Related. Others?

Towards fearless SIMD, 7 years later - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43519823 - March 2025 (175 comments)

Towards fearless SIMD - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18293209 - Oct 2018 (81 comments)

PoignardAzur8 days ago
Pretty happy this broke the 0.x curse!
the__alchemist6 days ago
The default system for Rust libs is ZeroVer: https://0ver.org/
meowface6 days ago
PuTTY out since 1999 and bumped to 0.82 in 2024 is pretty incredible
pocksuppet6 days ago
It's exactly what we were doing before the semver hype cycle, but with 0. in front!
Ohentis5 days ago
My outsider understanding is that lots of things make 1.0. Everytime something is abandoned.

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