The new transparency ordinance, effective July 2027, eliminates administrative service charges, pet rent and package fees and requires upfront pricing for tenants.

70 points•toomuchtodo•9 days ago•173 comments•

173 comments

legitster9 days ago
It's not a "ban"; from what's described it's a disclosure requirement. It has always been required to have these in the rental agreements - but you have to publicize them so people see them before they pay an application fee.

It's not that onerous of legislation, but it also feels a bit gimmicky. I have never once had a problem getting the information when asked. And places that provide free utilities or pets already advertise themselves heavily as such - this would really only benefit extreme novices in the market

m4639 days ago
Maybe you haven't rented in a while from a management company.

There are any number of stupid trends nowadays.

apartment account/login required to do almost anything, including autopay. electronic phone/garage keys with almost trivial consent of access to your apartment. apartment internet required. third party apps with account/phone/video+photos requirement to access package room, etc.

legitster9 days ago
The electronic keying is probably annoying but it's got to be an order of magnitude better than having master keys and locks.

At least when it's electronic it's logged and auditable somewhere. The amount of bad outcomes from keys floating around out there is absurd.

gs179 days ago
> third party apps with account/phone/video+photos requirement to access package room

And despite that, packages will still be stolen regularly.

seanmcdirmid9 days ago
Having been an extreme novice once, I can appreciate these laws. But as always you’ll probably get your experience the hard way.
sitkack9 days ago
You can't compare if you don't know the cost, if you can't compare it is hard for the invisible hand to price the market.

Price transparency makes more efficient markets.

cjf1019 days ago
Seattle should do restaurants next, the number of places with %fees tacked on that aren't tips and aren't optional, just so they don't end up having $20+ entrees on the menu is growing steadily.
m4639 days ago
I liked reading "the rational optimist" by matt ridley

One point I remember is that with trust, trade is infinite.

This completely follows in my life.

I trust costco, and I buy stuff there without doing any calculus.

I don't trust apps on the apple store, I basically don't buy any of them (even/especially the free ones). Even the phone itself has about 10,000 pages of privacy policy.

GOG sells games without DRM that you can download and played offline, forever. I don't worry about buying any game.

andrepd9 days ago
It's amazing how people neglect this basic fact. Free markets already often don't work in practice. But they don't even work in theory if both parties do not have at the very least the same information in order to base their decisions. These sort of scam tactics (like dynamic pricing) are simply fraud, much like hiding problems in a car or a house you sell.
OptionOfT9 days ago
This issue exists everywhere in the USA.

Go check the price for a movie ticket. At the end they slap on an additional fee. Why can't they show the fee included in the main price?

I went to the Verde Canyon Railroad, when gas prices were really low. Still a fee for higher gas prices on the receipt...

ocdtrekkie9 days ago
I think in general my preference is the other part of this story: Rather than choosing what fees can and can't be offered, require both brutal price transparency and prohibit advertising the unrealistic/lesser cost.

A friend of mine has recently lamented the idea gas stations can advertise "with car wash" pricing on top with what is "fine print" on the sign, which looks good but isn't when you factor in the cost of the car wash.

Another favorite is the personal loan ad, saying you're preapproved for a loan as low as 6% APR but actually you can be denied and the loan could be up to 36% APR even if you get approved. Nonsense.

I don't have a huge problem with a discount for car washes but the advertisement should be an out the door price or rate. Similarly I don't mind capped or content-restricted data plans, but the advertised price should be the unlimited one.

I don't think we should decide what businesses can sell, but we should make it very hard to mislead on the ad. Force advertisements to be the highest price instead of the lowest price, and you'll find companies finding ways to remove fees from the table themselves.

aeturnum9 days ago
I think you should check out the kinds of fees they call out as no longer allowed[1]. They include things like: a fee to "perform landlord duties" and a fee to "access your mailbox." I absolutely think it should be illegal for your landlord to hold your mail hostage.

That said, this generally allows optional fees - they just need to be disclosed, have clear opt-in and out, and cannot be profit centers for the landlord.

[1] https://seattle.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=15702946&GUID=...

ocdtrekkie9 days ago
I mean obviously fees should either be included in the original price, or there should be a reason it might apply in some cases but not others. But I can also see someone just wanting to break out the costs as separate line items to highlight where their costs come from. (Here's what I pay for the property taxes, here's what I pay for the included utilities, here's what I pay for these maintenance services, so tada, there's your rent.)

But again, if the advertised price must be the total price, it doesn't matter if there's a mailbox access fee or not. It's no different than if they eliminate the fee but raise the price the same amount. Make the advertised price be the highest price, and say "hey, you can advertise discounts off of that".

Nobody's going to advertise you can save $5 a month by eliminating your mailbox.

A similar effect, would be no longer advertising a plan's price if you enable paperless billing and autopay. You'd have to advertise the price without, and then can offer discounts for those things.

Or movie ticket prices being required to be listed with the convenience fee included, and if a theater wants, it can advertise a discount for buying a ticket some other way. More than likely that would just kill convenience fees.

pnw9 days ago
Seattle's push to add additional regulation, compliance, fees and inspections has resulted in an exodus of small landlords, which are down anywhere from 19% to 22% in four years depending on how you slice it, and an explosion in large landlords which are up 77% in the same period.

The city has basically consolidated the rental market so it works best for large corporations. Was that the intent?

tonyhb9 days ago
Small landlords don't own apartment buildings. They buy houses/units to rent, lowering availability for buyers. So, you'd at least want to look at the number of new apartment rentals available plus the number of first time house buyers to get a better picture.
standeven9 days ago
Small landlords also rent out basement suites and carriage homes on their own property, no? Those may very well sit empty if the return isn’t worth the risk.

Editing to just add: I absolutely support transparent pricing for rental properties.

EA-31679 days ago
They don't own the buildings, but it's frequently part of a condo association and they own a unit or two.
jltsiren9 days ago
And market-rate rental complexes replace condos. I can see legitimate reasons for subsidized rental complexes, and there is always some need for market-rate units, but I don't see any justification for dedicated market-rate complexes. People who can afford paying the market rate should be able to buy if they stay in the area long enough, but American cities have a shortage of smaller units you can buy. For some reason, maybe due to regulatory and market failures, developers prefer rental complexes over condos.
stasomatic9 days ago
Mine did, in North Hollywood, owned a 2 story building, I think 8 units with varying floor plans. Does that qualify as an apartment building? He did all the work himself unless it was something like HVAC or required permitting. He was an IT dude who got laid off by Century Link and diversified. Didn't seem to enjoy the maintenance part though, but was perfectly capable.
dmitrygr9 days ago
> lowering availability for buyers

This makes an unsubstantiated assumption that everyone would rather buy and can afford to, ignoring that people have reasons to rent.

dghlsakjg9 days ago
Can you cite what laws you are talking about. The one being discussed here does not seem to target small landlords, but big predatory ones. There aren't any additional fees or inspections and compliance is as simple as only charging one amount for rent and not tacking on additional fees.

My experience when renting in Seattle a decade ago was that it wasn't particularly hard to find a place, and that the only places that dealt in these bullshit fees were the big corporate landlords.

pnw9 days ago
You are incorrect about this law being "simple". For a start it requires three years of mandatory recordkeeping with an automatic presumption of violation for inadequate records. Forget to save a copy of that ad you ran on Facebook three years ago for your rental? Tough luck, you owe the tenant $4000 plus their attorney fees.

The city also added a private right of action so this law will be weaponized by attorneys with a profit motive, the same way the ADA has been.

Seattle is free to pass whatever laws they wish but they can't do so and then complain about a lack of homes for rent in the city. This hits families who want to rent a home much harder than single people or couples who tend to rent apartments.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/where-seattle...

techgnosis9 days ago
Small landlords aren't the ones dropping junk fees on tenants
gs179 days ago
I think this might help small landlords out a bit. Big corporate landlords can easily add nonsense fees to make the rent look low. Small landlords wouldn't bother charging you to use your own mailbox and usually don't have common areas to charge you for access to. With things made transparent, the small landlords can simply offer a price, and be on a more level playing field.
flowerlad9 days ago
We need a global ban on junk fees. I am tired of shit like AT&T's "Administrative & Regulatory Cost Recovery Fee".
pishpash9 days ago
This isn't a ban on junk fees. It's an upfront disclosure requirement.
inglor_cz9 days ago
On one side, I fully understand that. On the other side, if this really reflects the cost of compliance, maybe this is the only way to signal the voter that the "there ought to be a law" approach has some downsides to it.
dmitrygr9 days ago
Solution: you may put it on the receipt, but the price you advertise must be final all-in. Gas stations manage it just fine. Advertised price is what you pay, but receipt shows the taxes
flowerlad9 days ago
How would you like it if you rented a VM from AWS, and in the bill they added fees for employee health insurance, social security and medicare? That's a cost of compliance too!
tossandthrow9 days ago
I honestly think a us ban would get us quite far, also in a global setting.
rightnutwingjob9 days ago
You can’t ban business from passing on their costs to their customers.

Australia just tried this by banning businesses from charging a card use surcharge.

You really reckon business aren’t going to then just wrap the cost of card service / merchant fees in to every product, thereby hurting those who pay with cash?

Hint: that’s exactly what businesses are doing. I know because I asked them.

Maybe stop voting for politicians who believe they can tax and regulate an economy to growth and productivity.

georgemcbay9 days ago
In the US we were well on the way to substantial national bans on these types of junk fees under the Biden administration's CFPB, Khan's FTC, etc and then Trump reversed everything a few months into his current term.

Being ripped off by large corporations at every transaction is what "owning the libs" looks like for your life in practice, but hey at least you can say slurs on twitter now!

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

Related stories