728 points•EXHades•10 days ago•597 comments•

597 comments

rtpg10 days ago
This article linked back to the intercept's snowden archive articles [0], and while this article paints the Intercept in a bad light it lead me to reading a couple of these.

While I heard many of the headlines the reporting is very in depth, including a bunch of smaller details worth poking into. I'd recommend people who are interested and who haven't done so yet to just read a couple of these.

[0]: https://theintercept.com/series/snowden-archive/

ktallett10 days ago
Why does it post the Intercept in a bad light?
ekjhgkejhgk10 days ago
The Intercept was created for the purpose of publishing the Snowden archive. After a few articles, they decided they weren't going to do it any more, for reasons which are never entirely clear (Greenwald gave different justifications each time). And Greenwald was very aware of this:

> On 12 March Poitras was told on a telephone call with Greenwald and Wilson that Greenwald and Reed had decided to shut the archive, because it was no longer of value to The Intercept. On the same call, according to her account, Greenwald said the decision should not be made public because it would look bad for him and for The Intercept. Two days earlier the problem had been money, but now it was "value".

Speculation: the Intercept was a move by the NSA to shut down the last copy that hadn't already complied. Get a friendly billionaire acting as a concerned citizen, shower the key individuals with money, and once they're hooked make it clear that if the publication continue the money stops.

> In October 2013, tech billionaire Pierre Omidyar founded First Look Media (FLM), a New York nonprofit, as a collaboration with Greenwald, Poitras and Jeremy Scahill, with a promised $250 million in funding. FLM's first publication, The Intercept, launched on 10 February 2014 with purpose to report the Snowden documents.

( ... )

> The Intercept paid its senior journalists well. FLM reported $1.6 million to Glenn Greenwald's company between 2014 and 2017; $349,826 in total compensation to Jeremy Scahill in 2015; $368,249 to Betsy Reed in 2017. Charles R. Davis, writing in the Columbia Journalism Review, noted that such figures "are large for digital media and noteworthy in the world of progressive, nonprofit journalism."

sc68cal10 days ago
This whole situation has severely killed my faith in organizations and people. Snowden put a lot of trust in people that he had every right to believe they would do the right thing, and unfortunately it's been shown that that trust was misplaced.

Through a combination of blackmail, personality clashes, vanity and ego, incompetence, the whole thing just fizzled out completely. A real shame.

normalaccess9 days ago
It feels like there is "backpressure" that has been backed into our current world that makes people like Snowden and Assange an impossibility. The collective control of politics, media, and corporations have built a society that is inoculated to truth and no longer have a response to evil.

Even when the truth is told to us directly to our faces, no one seems to care.

wallst079 days ago
IMO the underlying reason for this is one or more of:

1) Americans are [statistically speaking] doing very well, high GDP, lots of consumer products to buy, lots of entertainment, lots of cheap food... and wikileaks is not doing anything to help but maybe destroy this.

2) Americans are also doing very poorly, the bottom 25% have bigger problems to deal with than wikileaks. Why would they care if the CIA is watching them if they can't afford next month's rent?

3) Information overload: Similiar to 1, we get overloaded with things we ought to care about, climate, wiki leaks, wars.... it's too much and people really just want. #1.

Or maybe I'm off...

RankingMember9 days ago
My hopeful side sees a future where he's pardoned and can live here as a hero.
jLaForest9 days ago
Something tells me in that future he would never be allowed to leave Russia. His entire value to the Russian government is to prove to Russians that the US is also repressive. If the US magically stopped being repressive enough to hail snowden as a hero, he would suddenly turn into a liability for Russia: proof that a repressive government can be changed by ordinary people fighting back. A very dangerous thought for any authoritarian government to allow unchecked, Russia and US alike
root_axis9 days ago
Not likely, both political parties hate him.
cm20129 days ago
He may have lost that opportunity when he took refuge, incredibly hypocritically, in a dictatorial police state.
GuB-429 days ago
Fleeing the country, to a rival country no less is not the best way to come back as a hero. If he really wanted to stand as a hero, he would have stayed in the US and stood for trial, all while being as loud as possible.

It would probably have ruined his life, but being a martyr makes an even stronger point.

Instead he chose to live a (hopefully) good life in Russia, I mean, good for him. The archive is out, he did his thing, he doesn't have anymore duty to anyone. But he pretty much burned his chance to be recognized as a hero in the US. He has his chance in other countries however. He has overwhelming support in countries like Germany and the rest of western Europe, these are nice countries that value privacy and freedom, that's probably where he should go (should he want to and can leave Russia) instead of the US.

asdff9 days ago
Funny how this always seems to happen.

Chelsea manning leaks - fizzled out

Edward Snowden leaks - fizzled out

Panama papers - a couple token people charged and many more acquited so that also fizzled out

Epstein files - clearly fizzling out

It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you expose and uncover and dump into the press. It doesn't matter how many reddit threads go over the corruption in detail coupled with available documentation. It doesn't matter how many podcasters talk about it.

It just doesn't ever matter. If the powers that be don't want the boat to rock, it simply will not rock. We've seen this time and time again over this past century. As sobering as that is to realize, the current crop of power has an absolute chokehold on this planet. We can openly talk about how corrupt they are and they know we won't do anything material about it.

wallst079 days ago
"If the powers that be don't want the boat to rock, it simply will not rock. "

Hear me out, it's not so much the powers, it's the people. If you poll people, they might say they want all this information and government reform.

But if you try to give them even 1 bit of hardship to accomplish this, then will not and it is easily forgotten.

This to me makes a lot more sense than 'the powers' in complete control.

butlike9 days ago
It's all fun and games until the mind wanders to you getting polonium-210'd for your work, and you decide 'my life isn't worth _this_.' It's kind of dumb people choose fear, but I understand it.
anotherhue10 days ago
I think the real answer is the Overton window shifted to accommodate what was previously scandalous,
nostrademons10 days ago
Overton window fragmented such that it is currently non-overlapping. Some fragments consider the behaviors that Snowden reported on abhorrent; others consider them fine; still others think it's a moot point because they are powerless and can't do anything about it anyway; and others think it's a moot point because they're going to overthrow the government and remake it in their image anyway.

We're in the phase where the factions are geographically sorting, identifying allies, and arming. Then we fight it out. Each faction thinks their particular Overton window will win and become dominant afterwards, but likely we'll just end up back in the Stone Age and there won't be much of a society left to have a mainstream.

pjc5010 days ago
You can see this in the framing over ICE, and before that the response to BLM: a lot of Americans want an unaccountable paramilitary police force.

You're not going to get serious opposition to mass surveillance until you kill the desire of curtain twitchers to report their neighbors to the Gestapo. People will even install their own mass surveillance cameras linked to the police! (Ring etc)

ricksunny10 days ago
>We're in the phase where the factions are geographically sorting, identifying allies, and arming.

In this framing what are the factions? What does geographically sorting mean - are the factions moving themselves from place to place?

djhn10 days ago
Your comment started out well within the Overton window, but in the second paragraph it jumped out.

Can we call that Overton window defenestration?

seer10 days ago
Why do we need to go to the Stone Age, maybe we go to Pre-cold war diversity of said windows? Or to Cold War stalemate with just a lot more actors?

I think the cheapening of labour that AI is doing globally will be much more impactful on culture, economy and life in general.

Our whole world order was _built_ on the Black Death making labour expensive which lead to the Industrial Revolution (among other factors, but this was an important one).

If we get to cheap labour - then we go to where South Asia is today - low education (why invest when you have ai?) big stratification of society, populist politics, etc.

India is portraying to its people how it’s racing to overtake the west and China … I think the other way around is more likely, with AI you get everyone closer to India’s case.

Prepare for ultra-ultra-ultra rich - like you have in India - honestly the gap between the wealthy and the poor there is astronomically higher than anything you’ve seen in the west.

Silver lining is though - societies like this end up “high Kinship” and more “stable” - maybe even lower large scale conflict?

flir10 days ago
That's still a single window. Otherwise what are the radical, unthinkable positions between abhorrent, fine and moot?

(TL;DR: It's just a metaphor).

fantasizr10 days ago
thats the tough thing about investigative journalism / whistleblowers. You have to hope there's an audience who will care.
rightnutwingjob10 days ago
Plenty of people care.

Empathy is, after all, free.

Action has a price.

motionlessveloc10 days ago
This is part of it. Previously governments felt the need to hide skullduggery, but the Trump admin doesn't even bother to pay lip service to this, so to the public revelationa about whatever the Obama admin was up top don't really register. And the political polarization where the mere word "Obama" gets half the population for thing at the mouth doesn't help.

All that said, it doesn't explain the total radio silence we've seen for years now.

firesteelrain10 days ago
People became ambivalent. Snowden fled eventually to Russia. Some people viewed him less relevant over time as the archive merely trickled out. When he fled to Russia, he looked less like a martyr and more like a national security information leaker or spy like Robert

A lot of what sounded extraordinary in 2013 is now baked into everyday discussion like metadata and mass surveillance. He is also available less for interviews because he is in Russia.

Basically bigger fish to fry

unsungNovelty10 days ago
He didn't "flee" to Russia. His passport was renounced/revoked/disabled while he was on his way to the original destination. He got stuck in the Russian airport for a freaking long time in a small room while the govt made sure he can't go anywhere else. Good Lord, fled to Russia it seems.
INTPenis10 days ago
That's how it looks at least. It's a good excuse if your goal was always to flee to Russia.
firesteelrain10 days ago
He could have returned to the US. He chose to exile in Russia. He was already fleeing. I posted a bunch about it below
anonym2910 days ago
He didn't flee to Russia. He had booked tickets to Ecuador going through Russia. The Obama administration revoked his passport, rendering him stateless and unable to leave Russia. Please do not regurgitate propaganda.
firesteelrain10 days ago
He actually fled the US before the leaks became public to Hong Kong but it was a calculated risk because Hong Kong has extradition treaty with the US. So he was fleeing already.

He could have returned to the US however he would have most certainly faced arrest. So he asked and was granted temporary asylum in Russia. If my passport is voided for whatever reason then I am returning to the US. I am still a citizen and so was he.

But naturally he didn’t want to be arrested so by definition became a fugitive.

walrus0110 days ago
Thinking the US government wouldn't kidnap and rendition him from Ecuador is an extremely ignorant and uninformed position on how the US exercises power in the Americas. He made a least-bad choice of all possibly horrible choices and chose to stay in Russia.
BLKNSLVR10 days ago
Eeesh, the propaganda must be strong in the US if you're getting downvoted for this. You're essentially summarising documented facts.
viktorcode10 days ago
Russians had a joke about him back then: "For the crimes against the US Snowden was sentenced to the life in Russia"
atemerev10 days ago
Absolutely not a joke.
commandersaki10 days ago
I would say Snowden's legacy is the push to get HTTPS everywhere.
Lammy10 days ago
Which ironically makes the Internet more surveillable, because now every single connection has to hit some TLS-terminating origin and can't be cached at the edge of our own networks. Don't confuse security with privacy.
octoberfranklin10 days ago
So what? They have Cloudflare. "SSL removed here"
firesteelrain10 days ago
That’s true
crossroadsguy10 days ago
Passport revocations are all details. Where else he would have gone and stayed alive/un-arrested until now?

He had the option of either not reporting what he saw wrong at all, or getting killed or arrested after doing that had he not chosen a place where USA (or lackies) either couldn't touch him with impunity, or rather wouldn't dare to touch him with impunity.

margalabargala9 days ago
Ecuador was his original plan. He had been granted asylum there.
Traster10 days ago
In the UK we have the laws around how government documents of historical value go into the national archives after 20 years, documents with personal information are held longer (up to 100 years). I could see a good argument for the Snowden archive to be automatically decrypted and published after 100 years on a similar basis for it's historcial value.

I think the answer to what happened is really straight forward though - they published as much of it as they could, what they published is probably pretty representative of other stuff in the archives and there's no news value to publishing 100 variations of the same story. If they published 1% of the archive, but the other 99% is just a million details about the same basic decisions then I don't think it matters much. It's also a really slow and painful process to make sure you're protecting the identities of people.

Having said that, I could see some value in a team taking a privately hosted open source AI model, feeding into it the archive and any related news articles into it and asking it if there's anything newsworthy that we missed.

majkinetor9 days ago
In current age there is no reason for Snowden not to do this:

1. Use all variants of local AI to categorize documents and remove PII. Different AI's can be used to doublecheck results

2. Publish output as a torrent

Then wider community can find whatever patterns exist there.

ishouldnotbutk89 days ago
He needs to invent a time machine first. He obviously doesn't have access to the leaked documents anymore.

But I agree that there is no reason for the journalists that have access to not do this.

segmondy10 days ago
100 years?
irthomasthomas10 days ago
Except for all the exceptions, which are many, like the Jack the Ripper police files which where denied to the public.
throwaway8582510 days ago
They're just hiding misconduct because the government does an enormous number of things that would be national scandals if they weren't allowed to bury them.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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