261 points•DeepLogin•10 days ago•266 comments•

266 comments

jmward0110 days ago
There are a multitude of arguments against this:

- Investing in alternatives has led to massive new industry that is improving the economy of those countries that do it. If your argument is an economic one then jump onto the solar, wind and battery bandwagon.

- There are virtually no real short medium or long term gains economically here. Gas is the only thing still competitive with solar/wind and its costs are rising while solar and wind continue to fall. Building new maximum pollution plants would drop that internalized cost but who in their right mind would fund something so obviously DOA?

- Obviously the externalized costs of greenhouse gas emissions are deeply undervalued in this move. Even if they are 'fake news' in the US, the rest of the world is finally starting to take them seriously. The US's diminished soft power means it won't be able to easily bully the world into allowing it to pollute without consequence and such an obviously hostile move means it will loose even more of its soft power by taking this position. So on the international level this means we burn a lot of political capital and gain nothing but decades of distrust and anger.

- Current events show that energy security is dominated by decoupling from fossil fuels. This weakens the US strategically and continues to set it up to be manipulated by exceptionally hostile actors.

- Oh yeah and, of course, climate change is real.

This continues the US down the path of being the best buggy whip maker in the world. Worse than that, the US is becoming an obnoxious buggy whip maker who's neighbors are starting to hope fails horribly and will help make that happen as moves like this continue. This is stupid at every scale and in every dimension.

nine_k10 days ago
The current wars in Europe and the Middle East paradoxically push the world towards non-fossil enery like few things did before. Both oil and natural gas prices have skyrocketed on global markets, and will likely rise more, as Ukraine continues to target Russian oil infrastructure, and Houtis continue to stymie Saudi oil exports.

Nothing hampers solar, wind, and batteries though; at worst it takes longer to ship the key components from China to Europe around Africa.

leonidasrup10 days ago
The current wars in Europe and the Middle East could paradoxically push the world towards more domestic energy production, be it fossil or non-fossil energy.

For example in reaction to 1973 Arab oil embargo Carter boosted energy efficiency and solar and promoted coal.

" "America indeed is the Saudi Arabia of coal, and my goal as President of the United States is to see on the world energy markets Arab oil replaced with Illinois coal," Carter told miners and employees of the Old Ben Coal Mine No. 25. He also boasted that the country would, "produce more coal in 1980 than has ever before been produced in the United States of America." "

https://www.npr.org/2024/12/29/1158426645/jimmy-carters-envi...

New coal gasification projects in India

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-clears-4-billi...

jiggawatts10 days ago
> Nothing hampers solar, wind, and batteries though;

For now.

The majority of solar panels are made in China (85%), and they plan to invade Taiwan in just a few years, possibly as soon as 2027, at which point either we let them take control of AI chip production or defend Taiwan and cut ourselves off from the source of almost all manufactured products, and especially solar panels.

PorciiVorbesc10 days ago
>Nothing hampers solar, wind, and batteries though; at worst it takes longer to ship the key components from China to Europe around Africa.

Except you know, all the actual mining and manufacturing of those things, which isn't in the west but mostly in China.

phatfish10 days ago
It's fun watching the right wing try to square this circle. Especially in the UK where we import most of our fossil fuels.

We could have sovereign control over our energy supply with renewables and electrification. Yay, we become a great sovereign nation free to do whatever we want with our great British energy supply!

But no, the right wing answer is to develop a couple of gas fields in the north sea that would supply a tiny amount of actual energy requirements, and do nothing for prices as it all goes into a global trading platform.

I know the reason, it's hard to say no to all that money from the fossil industry, and walk back decades of indoctrinating your base at their behest. Even if it means making your country energy independent...

jaybrendansmith10 days ago
Yup. The best thing Trump did for Climate Change was to start a war with Iran.
beloch10 days ago
At least they haven't relaxed restrictions on sulfur dioxide emissions, etc.. yet. Making rain acidic again would be completely on brand for this administration.
actionfromafar10 days ago
We might want to at least on the high seas to combat global warming a bit.
selectodude10 days ago
The Gulf countries paid handsomely to get Trump in there to keep the United States as the buyer of last resort once the rest of the world goes renewable.

Problem is that installing a bunch of sick sons of bitches to do your bidding can backfire when those some morons lose a war to Iran in a matter of months.

juujian10 days ago
Fossil fuel power plants are unfortunately still profitable for their owners (billionaires...). The cost of building them has mostly been written off a long time ago. None of this is about what is good for America in the long run...
thelastgallon10 days ago
Most big businesses don't run on competition or profits. They run on free money supply by the Govt.
leptons10 days ago
I have to wonder if this is a play towards coal miners, who are part of the conservative base - and they need every vote they can get. Coal is an awful source of power, and a really big source of pollution.
bunderbunder10 days ago
I doubt they really care about coal miners’ actual votes. The US coal mining industry employs fewer than 50,000 people. I live in a major coal producing state and while it was an important industry in my grandparents’ time, these days it isn’t a particularly noteworthy share of our economy.

I would say if it’s specifically about coal at all, it’s more because of the GOP’s tendency toward weird nostalgic obsessions.

markvdb10 days ago
walrus0110 days ago
Translated to American: "fuck you, I got mine"
Gibbon110 days ago
A thought is that from 'their' perspective the potential loss of power and status on the tip top of things is to them existential. Consider a certain Senator being wheeled into the Senate to vote. Why even subject ones self to that. Because to step down is annihilation. There was another Senator in 2023 being wheeled around the same way.

So all of this is performative asserting power in order to punish anyone seen as a threat to the current system.

thrance10 days ago
There's this idea in leftist thought, that in the end capital only ends up growing its relative power over labourers. Trump's policies, Climate Change, they all make everyone worse off in the absolute, but they end up giving capital more relative power over the rest of us.
thrance10 days ago
And it should be noted that "déluge" is more often than not used to refere to the biblical flood, not just any flood.
reactordev10 days ago
Full steam ahead towards greenhouse gases, climate change, and +5degree temperatures. Why not?
bayindirh10 days ago
Because it'll create value.

Value which won't bring anything to anyone. I mean, a couple of people can be more richerer, but we and them won't have a planet to spend or enjoy these theoretical riches at the end.

So, no biggie.

throw0101a10 days ago
> Because it'll create value.

The New Yorker published Tom Toro's one-panel comic/cartoon in 2012, and here we are in 2026:

* https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

reactordev10 days ago
Lobbyists lies a foot. “We can’t provide more power with these pesky regulations”
cyanydeez10 days ago
Disaster capitalism is pretty much current AI is to future AI use
tosapple10 days ago
define 'climate pollution', this is all fine and well until they apply it to nuclear shielding.
jmclnx10 days ago
Normally I would be concerned, but these days, we are well on our way to 3.5C. All this will do is cancel out progess China and Europe is making on renewals.

It is to bad these people do not care how much of a sucky life they are handing their grandchildren. Wait to see what happens when millions of desperate people living south of the 40th parallel start heading north in mass. No wall will stop that.

blooalien10 days ago
> It is to bad these people do not care how much of a sucky life they are handing their grandchildren.

It's a cryin' shame these people don't care how much of a sucky life they are handing everyone's grandchildren, and not nearly enough people actually cared when we could have still done something about it...

sippingabonedry10 days ago
> All this will do is cancel out progess China and Europe is making on renewals

China brought 50 new coal plants online in 2025 alone but keep telling yourself that.

billfor10 days ago
According to Al Gores movie (shown to US students) we were already supposed to be beyond 2C by now. When the ClimateGate "hide the decline" emails were released that also raised a few eyebrows. So saying the world is now going to 3.5C rings on deaf ears. That's not science that's just the fact of what actually happened so far.
layer810 days ago
Après nous, le déluge!
0xy10 days ago
US energy usage is flat in real terms since 2000 despite skyrocketing population growth. In per capita terms, it's plummeting.

China builds hundreds of coal plants a year while they are exempt from scrutiny.

tzs10 days ago
It is usage of plants that matters, not number of plants.

Most of the new Chinese coal plants mostly have have low capacity factors. They are being built as backups and peakers rather than baseload, designed (or retrofitted in the case of existing plants being upgraded) to be able to cycle up and down to balance wind and solar.

Many are idle so much that their owners have financial difficulty keeping them open, and the government has had to start paying them for their idle time so they won't go under.

Many are also built to replace existing plants that cannot not yet be replaced with renewables, so are at worst neutral on coal usage and are usually actually more efficient than the old plants so there is a reduction.

Timon310 days ago
Since 2000, how much production did the US offshore to China?

If this trend keeps going for a decade+, China might begin to approach US per-capita emissions.

Hikikomori10 days ago
Their coal burning isn't going up though.
nxm10 days ago
Don't forget India as well
phtrivier10 days ago
From the wording, it's not clear if the ruling (from 2024) had any impact on power plant running today, or newly built one (it seems like it was mandating carbon capture eventually.)

The "good" news is that coal plants are already suboptimal, economically. This is delaying the closure of existing plans, which is just absurd, but completely on brand for the political party that people voted in office, with complete knowledge of what would happen.

I suppose they also voted for "cheaper groceries" and "no more endless wars", but that will come any time soon.

tialaramex10 days ago
I know HN has lots of American readers, so maybe they can explain.

Why aren't the vast majority of America's suburban single family dwellings using rooftop solar? Huge numbers of Americans live in these homes - they're not so much a thing, especially to this degree, in other countries and they seem basically ideal for rooftop solar.

Am I missing something here?

thelastgallon10 days ago
1) The Roof Explanation

US homes are stick built. The roofs are not concrete, they are shingles. This is the single biggest bottleneck. On concrete, its super easy to add a simple steel frame, add panels and done.

Shingles have a shelf life of ~25 years. Most people buy old homes. And the roof is somewhere in the middle of its life. Its usually better to replace the roof and add solar at the same time.

The people who buy new homes have already maxed out their budget (people buy the biggest home they can afford, maxing out the downpayment) and they aren't thinking of adding solar rightaway.

2) Americans are pro fossil fuel (thanks to fossil fuel shills). Installers spend a third to half the money on door to door salesmen. This cost is absent in other countries.

3) US govts make solar unbelievably costly, by regulatory capture, tarriffs, banning panels from China. And they create perverse incentives of subsidies which make the installation costlier because it has to go through licensed installer to avail of the subsidy. The licensed installers always charge top dollar because its a captured market.

apexalpha10 days ago
Virtually all roofs in the Netherlands aren't concrete but wood frames with ceramic tiles. The PV is just attached to the wooden frame, not the shingles or tiles.

Shingles have a shelf life of ~25 years. Most people buy old homes. And the roof is somewhere in the middle of its life. Its usually better to replace the roof and add solar at the same time.

You can just take off the PV when replacing a roof, costs a few hundred if you don't want to do it yourself. Trivial compared to the cost of a new roof and probably less than the savings in the meantime they're on the old roof.

rainsford10 days ago
Rooftop solar in the US is incredibly expensive from most installers even as panel prices have come down and energy prices are typically low enough that the payoff time and up-front cost are seen as not worth it for many people. The US also has a lot of homes where (cheap) natural gas is used for cooking, heating, and hot water, which you'd have to continue paying for even after you installed solar panels or pay a lot of money to convert to electrical equivalents.

That said, I know a lot of people who have recently installed solar panels on their roof and it's increasingly worth it from a financial perspective. The other thing worth noting though is that while cool, rooftop solar really isn't the best approach to installing solar capacity compared to grid scale solar farms on land which also tends to be abundant in the US.

kg10 days ago
Some speculative answers based on what I know:

1. A lot of single family dwellings are occupied by renters. In this scenario, the renter has no ability to install rooftop solar, and the owner has no incentive to install rooftop solar because the renter is paying the energy bills. (The same goes for things like installing high-efficiency heat pumps etc.)

2. HOA regulations can block things like rooftop solar depending on where you live.

3. The up-front investment involved in rooftop solar can be prohibitive for many people. Things like tax incentives can help but we've been getting rid of those under the current administration, and tax incentives only go so far if your tax return is 6+ months away.

oxag3n10 days ago
Most houses are old and many in shit condition, you'd want at least replace shingles before installing solar.

Everything becomes harder and expensive - no more standard gutter cleaning fee (200-300 bucks per average roof). For damp subclimates no more moss treatment possible.

For many houses you'd need structural engineer assessment to make sure roof can add such a load.

Many vents and outlets need to be relocated to cover large and nice area with the panels.

Dealing with contractors on standard things is such a pain already in US - expensive, many unskilled, trying to get more money out of your pocket. When they see someting expensive or non-standard their attitude changes even more.

kileywm10 days ago
The data that I've seen shows that the barriers to solar adoption for the average American home are high installation cost, low grid power cost, unfavorable net metering agreements for grid interconnect, and even some pushback from neighborhood committees (homeowners association aka HOA).

There are exceptions such as Hawaii where grid power is expensive and sunshine abundant, but the US is big, geographically diverse, and because of that adoption varies greatly on regional dynamics.

ButlerianJihad10 days ago
Tech workers located in South Africa and nearby regions suffer, because the power grid there is unreliable at best. Therefore, those workers may be required by employers to prove that they have arranged for reliable backup power and network connections in order to stay connected (nearly to the antipodes) and ensure that their performance is competitive with workers located in stable regimes with robust power grids and network backbones.

It may seem unfair or unnecessary for US employers to require US employees to have a UPS, solar array, a redundant network connection, etc. But if employers required these things up-front, surely some tech workers could step up to the challenge and perhaps even be distinguished from those who don't get it.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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