254 points•tliltocatl•10 days ago•183 comments•

183 comments

Ccecil10 days ago
Sad news. First, Openbuilds now this.

Not a surprise to me though since I am operating in the CNC industry I have seen the same struggles and changes, albeit, from a slightly different perspective.

I work with the Smoothieware/Smoothieboard project. It seems, from my observation, that most people are not working with hardware like they were a few years ago. The "homebrew" machines and shadetree makers are becoming few and far between.

The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. Not only that but people have been convinced that they don't have the ability to make a machine.

Instead of spending time learning something new/valuable (i.e. Reprap) it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country with subsidies that create massive differences in bottom line.

The ability to make things at home is disappearing. People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines. Companies that make machines that care about their community and customers are disappearing.

Maybe it's by design? I don't know.

Aurornis10 days ago
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects.

> The ability to make things at home is disappearing

I do not know what you are talking about.

3D printing at home is more popular than ever. Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them.

> People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines

I think this is an appeal to 3D printing purity that drove me away from many of the communities. In the early days we all swapped tips and shared reviews of parts (like the Smoothieboard I still have) with other people who liked to build machines because that was the only way to do 3D printing at hobby level prices. When asked what we used the 3D printers for, the joke was that they were used to print parts for our 3D printer. It wasn’t really a joke, though. We spent more time keeping the printers working and trying to tune them than we did printing other things we needed.

That has flipped. Now it’s easy to get a cheap 3D printer and start getting parts out of it without thinking about the printer much. This is great if you’re a person who wants to use the output of the printer. This is boring if you think the value is the process of building and changing the printer hardware all the time.

I’m tired of hearing takes about how this is wrong or bad. Most “makers” want to make other things, not spend their precious free time trying to debug failing prints. There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. People who want to do that can, but don’t look down upon the people who don’t want to do that.

regularfry10 days ago
It's just a colossal misread of the demographics. The community was always a mix of people who wanted to build a printer, and people who wanted a printed thing. The community has massively exploded since the early years, and it's almost entirely made of people in the latter camp who, critically, no longer have to go through the former campsite to get there. It doesn't mean there aren't people in the first camp, or even that there are fewer of them. They're just a rounding error now.

You can tell when it happened, because the E3D v6 nozzle pattern went from being a de facto standard across everything to something you need to buy an adapter for, and nobody really seemed to blink.

ChrisMarshallNY10 days ago
It's a lot less of an issue, now, but Linux used to be a "mechanic's hot rod" operating system.

It's like that kid down the block, with the sweet hot rod that rattles the windows, when he drives past, but whenever you drive past his house, the car is up on blocks, and he's working on it.

Working on tools can be a lot of fun, but I like working on stuff that ships, so I prefer tools that don't require much work.

jfengel10 days ago
We had a similar discussion about computers the other day. A lot of us miss the days of tiny memory and optimizing for that.

It takes all kinds and I see no reason to gate keep either way. It's too bad that we do t often segregate around those opinions and don't share as much

Teever10 days ago
> There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap.

And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers?

Between the American tariffs and Chinese prioritization of 3d printing in a past five year plan American hobbyists and small scale producers are in a potential bind.

in_absentia10 days ago
> I do not know what you are talking about.

What are you talking about? Show me one survey that shows DIY crafts as a whole becoming more popular in the past several decades. It's just not a thing. People increasingly don't have room for it, computers and cell phones have won as a way to spend the bulk of our free time, and even if you want to create, the primary outlet is the digital world.

> 3D printing at home is more popular than ever

Sure, but that's a given because the technology didn't exist until very recently. I can also say that Tesla Cybertruck is more popular than ever, but that doesn't mean much, right.

> Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them.

A vanishingly tiny proportion of families in the US or in the EU own 3D printers and use them.

Youden10 days ago
I think maybe your view is too narrow? It's not that people don't want to make a machine, it's that now they don't have to.

When I started hobby CNC a few years ago, the only compact or desktop CNC machines were flimsy Chinese things made entirely of extrusion, expensive machines made for education/prototyping environments and the Carbide3D Nomad (which I ended up buying).

I ended up building a machine from scratch because the original Nomad was too flimsy to really cut metals, even Aluminium.

But in the last few years companies like Makera came along and sell desktop CNC machines that can cut metal for under $6k USD and there's even a toolchanger.

For just a little more, there's a Kickstarter for a 5-axis machine with mist cooling, ATC a wireless probe and it can cut steel and titanium.

And for those that want a DIY project, there seem to be plenty of folks doing CNC conversions of second-hand manual mills.

Ccecil10 days ago
Funny you mention Makera.

They use a fork of Smoothieware. [1]

We were happy/surprised to see they shared their mods. It is rare.

[1]https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware

JoshTriplett10 days ago
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects.

I've seen what people go through when they operate 3D printers. The impression I have is that they still make 2D inkjet printers look like paragons of reliability.

Ccecil10 days ago
I wouldn't trade that time spent on my printers for anything. I wrote a post about this recently [1]

There was way more valuable things learned in the process than just making Benchy.

For years I have been trying to tell people this. The value of Reprap was not just "to have a printer".

[1] https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/

mlyle10 days ago
I operate a small fleet at my school:

* 1x Prusa XL Gen 1 with 5 toolheads * 1x Prusa Mk4IS * 1x Bambu Labs X1C with multi-material * 2x Voron 0.2 * 1x Sovol Zero

My experience: the typical higher-end printer runs out of the box and runs hundreds of hours (or more) between maintenance beyond wiping the plate down, occasionally greasing the rails, and blowing little plastic bits out of the enclosure. Every year I end up doing a few hour significant maintenance job on about one of the six printers.

But then there's lemons. That Sovol Zero is terrible and has been down more than it's been up, because of something in the extruder assembly. It also came with a defective camera and needed it replaced. I need to decide whether to rebuild all that with many hours of labor or just get rid of it.

fourside10 days ago
I recently bought a Bambu Lab A1 printer. I went specifically with Bambu Lab because everything I read said that was the better choice if you want something low maintenance and easy to set up even if it’s not as open as some of the alternatives.

It’s stuck in the auto calibration stage. It gets halfway through then it stops with a generic error message. The UI around this is really clunky. I’ve tried searching online, asking Claude and nothing. I emailed customer support and they came back with cryptic instructions that assume familiarity with the internals of the machine.

I decided to leave this for a day when I wasn’t too mentally drained from work to debug issues in my free time and instead the machine has been collecting dust ever since.

Maybe it was a mistake to get a Bambi Lab? I thought it was the more turn key option but it hasn’t been my experience.

kakwa_10 days ago
It heavily depends on which printer you are talking about.

There is a world of difference between a 2019 Creality Ender 3 and a 2023 Bambulab A1 for not that much more money.

Auto-leveling, input shapping, PEI plates, high flow hotends, better build quality... all that have improved reliability significantly while increasing speed by a lot.

It even kind of killed the whole "tips and tricks to have good 3D prints" Youtube niche.

The Ender 3 had a huge role in democratizing 3D printing, but a 20% failure rate was kind of expected. With modern printers, the expectation is bellow 5% failure rate, plus the failures are much less painful since they are ~4 times faster.

It's not quite "press print and it works" but it's pretty damn close.

Aurornis10 days ago
I’ve had several printers over more than a decade. Even the most reliable new units can still be difficult to debug little things. My cousin’s family got a Bambu printer with no technical or mechanical experience and gets it working well most of the time, but there are still things that can bite you like prints not sticking to the bed because it has oils on it or filament breaking in the feed path because PLA absorbs moisture from the air and becomes brittle. A modicum of attention can keep these problems in check but the operator has to do some reading and learning.

There is another set of people who are in 3D printing because they like the experience of debugging and improving the printer as much or more than the final prints they get from it. The most hardcore 3D printing people I know don’t actually print much other than 3D benchies and test towers because their fun comes from playing with the machine and trying new parts. Those people build a different set of printer types than the plug and play units used by most casual makers.

kakwa_10 days ago
Most makers I know prefer to make stuff at themselves. If anything, it permits to iterate more quickly and grants much more satisfaction in the end.

But nearly all of them want to make stuff... not make the tool that makes stuff. It's the whole "my hobby is 3d printing" vs "my hobby is 3d printers".

Assembling a Voron is already a one or two week-ends project, building and configuring a custom CNC router can take months and there are class of tools which are simply inaccessible (making multi-layer PCBs, building anything rigid enough for steel machining).

Homebrew machines will always have its aficionados, people still are building Vorons for example, even when it doesn't really make sense financially or in terms of performance. But it's a niche that only grew early-one artificially when it's the only path (ex: reprap & early 3dp days), most people don't actually enjoy this part.

IMHO, having cheap ($500 or less) numerically controlled pre-made tools like 3d printers, laser cutters/engravers and lately maybe desktop CNCs, has been a blessing in the maker space, lowering the barrier to entry and enabling an explosion in the number of people building stuff.

hingler3610 days ago
I feel like this has been a talking point for as long as off-the-shelf printers aimed at hobbyists have existed. Calling them AI factories is a bit off the mark imo, there are plenty of hobbyists that learn CAD and want to make their own stuff, but don't want to build their own printer. The kind of people who are interested in reprap are absolutely still around, and I really don't see that community going dissolving because of the rise of capable commercial printers.
Ccecil10 days ago
That wasn't exactly what was said...

"it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country"

And sure there are some people interested in reprap but they have been scattered to the wind. #reprap IRC has become an advertising/support channel for commercial printers. If you go to most of the channels/forums where the development used to happen and mention you want to build a printer you will be flooded with responses about how stupid that is and provided with names/links of the printers you should be buying. Making things is a fool's errand.

Maybe my observations were different...maybe not...but from what I saw at about 2016 the whole DIY machine thing switched.

abakker10 days ago
There’s some other threads in this discussion bemoaning the lack of diy machine builders…and, I am really unclear how this Sherline issue is related? To me, this is a question of value for money. Sherline products were always interesting, but also nowhere near competitive as machines. With controllers like masso and acorn available, converting a mill like a grizzly, precision Mathews or even a Bridgeport are just way more value for money.

The other end of the spectrum is tools like the Langmuir bed mill/router or the avid benchtop routers with available 4 pole spindles.

There’s a lot of options, closed loop steppers are sub $100, servos from DMM or teknic are readily available and awesome.

Sherline has a product set that just felt like a compromise on everything.

In the last decade, I’ve built 3 routers, rebuilt a bed mill, converted a Bridgeport, and am currently building an automated beam saw. All the options in the market are drastically better than they were 15 years ago.

It’s sad to see a fixture of the community going out of business, but it also a reflection that the business is different now. Given the many different kits and options available, it just doesn’t make sense to buy small work envelope machines for most people.

Aurornis10 days ago
Sherline was good for businesses and labs that needed a light mill for rare use. Hobby users weren’t a good market because they’re always searching for used deals and conversions.

I haven’t shopped the Sherline catalog in a long time but this appears to be a case of a company failing to keep up with changing market conditions. Depending on how old the owners were, that may have been not too unreasonable. Some of these companies get founded by people who put a lot of work into establishing the small business, make their wealth, and then make the choice to let the business continue operating as a lifestyle business with low inputs until the income drops too low to pay the expenses. Not every company is designed to be a multi generational juggernaut.

obscurette10 days ago
My wife is in manufacturing and although not in US, working for a company having production in US, EU, Asia etc. Her 1-minute comments why it's increasingly difficult to produce something in EU and US.

Bureaucracy - the levels of it are insane especially in EU, but US is not far behind. The loss of local partners and environment - every little thing you can do locally makes production easier and cheaper. Failure to attract young people – although production is cool, it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations. Education - the quality of it is sinking almost all over the world. Insecurity - partly just part of times, but mostly coming from regulation, taxes etc.

ponector10 days ago
>> it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations

Usually it means the pay is crap, the schedule is bad and nobody is willing to invest into training. Why should young people select such career?

in_absentia10 days ago
Strongly disagree on that last part. Unlike software engineering, where training is nearly non-existent and we expect everyone to show to their first job interview knowing about the big-O complexity of sorting algorithms, traditional manufacturing has a robust tradition of apprenticeship and training on the job.

It also has much better and more predictable hours than, say, the ever-popular gaming industry.

You're right that low pay is an issue, but pay is crap in part because of outsourcing. Any machine shop in the US is competing with China to an extent that, oddly, we don't actually see in the software space. The West is mostly using Western-made software, and outside of that, only India is invited to the club (and even that only as a subcontractor).

But a lot of it is also just culture / parenting. Every parent wants their kid to become a software engineer, a lawyer, or a doctor. There's basically zero pride in being a machinist.

morio10 days ago
I own a lathe and mill from them, both converted to CNC. Sadly their products have changed little in 30+ years. Their precision parts have a use in some applications but it's vastly overshadowed by the cheap parts available from Asia (including India now).

3D printers, laser cutters and benchtop CNC routers have the taken over the lion share of what hobbyists (and some professionals) used to do with these machines. Mine are just collecting dust while my 3D printers crank out parts every day.

dyauspitr10 days ago
What parts are from India? I do a lot of CNC work and parts from India are acceptable but most importantly dirt cheap.
jordanb10 days ago
Real bummer I have their manual lathe and mill and have made a lot of things it would have been impossible to make without the ability to machine (even at small scale their machines could do).

One reason why I bought sherline is the company was still in business and creating so many accessories.

I guess I'll be trying to buy stuff off of eBay or something like I would have been doing had I bought Chinese stuff.

Speaking of which does anyone know the details of their small 60 degree carbide inserts? I assume that don't make those themselves.

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