364 points•azhenley•11 days ago•529 comments•

529 comments

hbn11 days ago
A funny quirk of English I never noticed until I started learning Spanish:

In Spanish, to say for example, "he is a doctor," you would say "él es médico." Which more literally translates to "he is doctor," which feels unintuitive coming from English. Spanish DOES have an equivalent for "a" - "un/una", so the natural thing for an English speaker to say would be "él es UN médico", but I understand that to be awkward/unnatural.

But then I realized, when you say the same sentence in plural - "they are doctors" - you don't have an article. You don't say "they are some doctors" (I had to Google, apparently "some" isn't an article anyway?)

So Spanish ends up more consistent - Singular: "Él es médico." Plural: "Ellos son medicos."

Unlike English - Singular: "He is a doctor." Plural: "They are doctors."

soyyo11 days ago
In spanish you also have to use a/an:

Es un perro (its a dog)

Saying "es perro" makes no sense.

The problem is that you are mixing two different constructs, if you are refering to the whole thing you have to say un/una, if you are describing a property of something you don't use it.

Es un perro, es macho. (It's a dog, is male)

If you are talking about doctor being a property of someone,like his profession, you say "es médico" but if you are refering to the doctor as an entity and not a property of someone you have to use "a":

Es un médico muy famoso (He is a very famous doctor). "Es médico muy famoso" again makes no sense.

Al-Khwarizmi11 days ago
But he is totally right Spanish is more consistent in that respect, because it has a plural article. You can say "son unos perros" as well when you put that sentence in plural.

Of course, that doesn't say anything about the languages in general, there are also things where Spanish is less consistent. E.g. why do we say "la película es buena" but "el día está bueno"? I'm a native Spanish speaker and when asked by foreigners about a rule that would explain that, I've never been able to come up with one.

I'm learning Chinese and my feeling is that it's more consistent than both Spanish and English, things actually tend to make a lot of sense in Chinese. A pity that between the tones and the characters, it's much harder to learn than either of them.

alpinisme11 days ago
A good parallel in English is actually “going to (or being at) school.” While you can say you’re at “the” school or “a school”, they mean different things than just being at school. Ditto for UK “to hospital.” (Cf. to university, to college, to city hall, in government)

Notably these are not the norm in English, but they do illustrate the pattern.

dspillett11 days ago
The other way around, Spanish uses the definite article where English would not:

• Tengo los ojos azules -> I have blue eyes (not I have the blue eyes)

• Juego el tenis -> I play tennis (not I play the tennis)

Though as with the indefinite article, at least there is no discrepancy between single/plural. In part it is necessary because there are some words that don't vary their spelling in different genders but do have different meaning:

• la papa -> the potato, el papa -> the pope (also el papá -> the dad)

• la capital -> the capital (as in city), el capital -> the capital (as in money)

• la corte -> the court, el corte -> the cut

[I had to look those up to check, I'd have had cut/court back-to-front otherwise!]

Another thing that doesn't exist in English is an equivalent to the “personal a”: vi a Fred -> I saw Fred, vi cuatro gatos -> I saw four cats (both languages use a definite or indefinite article for a single non-personal subject: vi un gato / vi el gato -> I saw a cat / I saw the cat). I suppose it could be said that Spanish is more consistent here too: there is always something in that position for simple forms, be it a count, an article, or a. I say “for simple forms” as there is nothing there for thing like “vi oscuridad en sus ojos” -> I saw darkness in his/her eyes (though in both languages either definite or indefinite article would also work but might suggest different emphasis: I saw a darkness in… / I saw the darkness in…).

josemfb9 days ago
At least in Chile, we say "juego tenis", or maybe "juego al tenis" ('al' being the contraction of 'a' and 'el', i.e. 'to the'), but not "juego el tenis" (that sounds weird)
byte_010 days ago
Something that Spanish has, that your "vi a Fred" example reminded me of is that when the direct object of a sentence is a person, you use "a": "vi a Fred", "escuché a mi mamá". Unlike unhuman objects: "vi el carro", "escuché un ruido".
bradrn11 days ago
It’s simply that, in English, there is no indefinite plural article — or, equivalently, that the indefinite plural article is null. So ‘they are doctors’ is consistent with the behaviour of plural nouns elsewhere.

Contrast this with, for example, French, where the indefinite singular un(e) correspond to the indefinite plural des: La boulangerie vend des baguettes ‘the bakery sells baguettes’ (whereas English cannot say *‘a baguettes’). But as in Spanish, professions take no article either way: Il est médecin / Ils sont médecins. So all three languages are self-consistent, just in their own ways.

hbn11 days ago
English still feels hard to explain when things sound natural and when they don't.

You can say "there are some vendors in the street" and it sounds normal. But if you were to say "they are some vendors" it sounds weird. It's pretty firmly more natural to say "they are vendors."

thaumasiotes11 days ago
There's a reason your parent comment expected some to be "an article". It is the plural of a(n). It's just that the term "article" was defined not to include it. There's a different word for the part of speech.
spider-mario10 days ago
Interestingly, when you speak about a category as a whole, in English, you use the null article (“cats meow” or “I like apples”), whereas in French, you would use the definite article (« les chats miaulent », « j’aime les pommes »).
lozf11 days ago
Certainly English can be odd. It can usually be understood through tough thorough thought though.
andsoitis11 days ago
A thorough thought, though a tough one to plough through.
thayne11 days ago
Interstingly it is the same in german, you would say "Er ist Arzt" not "Er ist ein Arzt". Which makes me wonder why english uses an indefinite article there, since it doesn't seem to be either germanic or romantic in origin.
1-more11 days ago
This was the root of the overblown Kennedy gaffe where he said “ich bin ein Berliner” instead of “ich bin berliner.”
rpadovani11 days ago
Eh, Italian has it tho.

"(Lui) è un dottore", "(Io) sono un dottore".

"Un" is the indefinite article.

Subject is usually dropped, thus the brackets

proxyscore11 days ago
German speaker here, you can say either and they're both equally correct, don't pretent to be some sort linguistic savant here lmfao
abraxas11 days ago
What gets me as a non-native speaker far more than "a vs an" is the "a vs the" conundrum. I still don't quite get when something needs to be "indefinite" and I've been speaking English for close to forty years. My native tongue lacks articles altogether and it's soo bloody hard I feel hopeless I'll ever master them fully.
gucci-on-fleek11 days ago
There's an episode [0] [1] in a famous Canadian comedy that makes fun of this distinction:

> Brent: Ah, the tax man.

> Drey: A tax man.

> Brent: Pardon?

> Drey: I'm not the tax man, I'm a tax man. Saying the tax man is just a little dehumanizing, thank you very much.

[…]

> Brent: A tax man. And whatever you, don't call him "the tax man." Call him "a tax man" or he kinda goes squirrelly on ya.

> Wanda: Some people are sensitive about article use.

> Brent: About what?

> Wanda: Proper article use. "A" or "an" are indefinite articles. "The" is a definite article. In fact, some people say "the" is "the" definite article.

[…]

> Hank: I know what I'm doing. We get the tax man...

> Brent: A tax man.

> Wanda: Actually, in this case you can say "the" tax man, because you're referring to a particular person.

[0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0546137/

[1]: https://cornergas.fandom.com/wiki/Tax_Man

ifh-hn11 days ago
I was going to ask whether articles might go the way of pronouns in that people might latch onto them and start demanding you refer to them only using a particular article when they're not around, like some do with pronouns. Then email signatures could be:

they/them/an

ivanbakel11 days ago
What's interesting about the replies to this comment how readily people provide post-hoc justifications for language features that often have no essential rhyme or reason. The same is true for the prepositions which accompany verbs, which tend to vary by language, but for which every language's speaker will gladly offer you "rules" or "explanations" for when they fit. It's great evidence that we can be very good at something with no communicable understanding of what it is we actually know.
joquarky11 days ago
Usually happens when a person answers a "why" question to something they did without thinking.
pessimizer10 days ago
> people provide post-hoc justifications for language features that often have no essential rhyme or reason.

Nah. English articles make sense, they're just usually unnecessary, and languages can often do without the information they add (or they reduce ambiguity in other ways.) English articles certainly reduce the context necessary to understand an isolated sentence.

In Spanish, for example, knowing the subject of the conversation or even knowing what's going on in the surroundings of the speaker might be necessary to understand a subjunctive. In English, hearing a definite article will tell you that you've missed something if you don't know what it refers to; hearing an indefinite one will assure you that you haven't. Hearing an article at all will assure you that the noun isn't being verbed (if it's not obvious.) It's impossible to tell what some Spanish sentences mean in isolation, because you don't know who would do, could do, should do, or was doing the thing. Means nothing in normal conversation. Koreans are like "how do you even know how old they were?" Quechua are like "how do you even know how they found out?"

There's a good reason for everything in language, because if we don't need it, it will just get dropped. The obvious purpose of a thing might not be the reason that it is necessary, though. It may plug an ambiguity hole left by other parts of the language. It may be necessary socially/religiously. It may just reduce to a tolerable level the amount of thinking one has to do before beginning to speak.

> It's great evidence that we can be very good at something with no communicable understanding of what it is we actually know.

Definitely true, but this is a bad example. English adjective order is the really good example that people usually cite. We don't even know that we're doing it. Also all of our weird grammatical tones, and our strong word/phrase -initial stress. Shifting that stuff changes meanings completely, everybody understands, nobody notices. Except people coming from tonal languages, trying their best not to sound like robots or broken tape recorders.

The "I don't know" noise, "[note]mmm[higher note]MMM[middle note]mmm," and the other weird sing songy grunts we do that are words. Our crazy vowels. The fact that the word "tests" is a voiced click and two hisses.

And that's not even getting into politeness - and the difference between modulating politeness and indexing politeness. English speakers modulate. Speakers of many Asian languages index. We change forms of address as a way to express how we currently feel about someone, whereas when a Korean person starts dropping honorifics, it almost means they don't even think you're human.

AndrewDucker11 days ago
If there's more than one, and you don't care which one, then it's "a". If you care which one then it's "the".

"Pass me a plate" - any plate will do. "Pass me the plate" - I want the specific plate which we were talking about.

layer811 days ago
That rule isn’t universal though. “I go to the dentist every year” doesn’t imply that I particularly care about a specific dentist (or, case in point, about the specific dentist).

“This was a nice evening” is also difficult to characterize as not caring about which evening it is. As are books titled “An Introduction to XYZ”, where both the authors and the readers will probably care about the specific book.

kazinator11 days ago
Nope! Because "the" also refers to a class/category which is essentially the opposite of indicating a particular member.

For instance, "the bald eagle is native to North America".

There is also "The" in names; The Beatles, The Great Lakes, The Bahamas, The Bronx, ...

The role of "the" depends on context: how was the subject treated in previous sentences in the conversation.

"I see a bald eagle out of the window. The bald eagle is huge!"

In this second sentence, there is no way that "the bald eagle" could refer to the class of bald eagles, because the previous sentence introduces the topic of the sighting of a bald eagle. It refers to that one.

If "the bald eagle is huge" appears out of the blue, not preceded by any discussion of any eagle, that tends to bring in the class interpretation.

I learned the above through Japeanese. A similar thing happens with the は (wa) topic particle; I realized that "the" works in a similar way in that regard.

Sharlin11 days ago
That much is obvious and everyone learns it like on the first week of English learning, of course. It’s the various cases where that simple rule doesn’t apply that are difficult.

"I play the piano"

And then there are those cases where you actually use neither!

red75prime11 days ago
This doesn't touch place names. The Hague, Amsterdam, The Maldives, Australia, The Netherlands, France...
lwansbrough11 days ago
I was going to start by stating the difference is “a” is unspecific, “the” implies the subject is already known.

However as I thought more about it I realized it gets a little more complicated. I’m not academically studied in English, though I am a native speaker.

For example if you say, “Our town has a castle” - that’s a specific castle but you wouldn’t say “our town has the castle.”

Why? It has to do with what the listener knows. “Definite” means the subject is known to the listener. If I’m introducing a castle into the conversation that you don’t know, I’m talking about _a_ castle. Now that it’s introduced, I can tell you about _the_ castle.

ahartmetz11 days ago
It's because the town has one out of the set of all castles.

You can also say "Our town has the castle", which... now there it gets weird. I think it means it doesn't have much, but it has that. Well I guess it's specific in that it is one of the few (specific) things it has going for it.

Ekaros11 days ago
"Our town has the castle". Is reasonable for meaning that it has the best/oldest/most historical/largest one. Or in general that the specific castle that has something which separates it from the rest.
mauvehaus11 days ago
"Our town has the castle" would mean that of (all the gin joints in) all the towns in all the world, only yours has a castle. Also not academically qualified, also a native speaker.
bethekidyouwant11 days ago
If there was only one castle then you would save the. For example our town has “the giant duck” (fictional fibreglass statue)
stephenhuey11 days ago
When I was at Rice a quarter century ago, I took a 300-level linguistics class called Structure of English. Half a dozen of us sat around an oval table in a little room and I was the only one not majoring in linguistics. It was a delightfully geeky bunch. One of the students later worked on speech recognition at Microsoft. The professor was an older tall thin man who always wore suspenders and a bow tie.

I had always been good at grammar in high school, but this was a different world and I had no idea what I was in for. We spent the first two weeks discussing the differences between the and a, and the next two weeks on the differences between this and that, and the rest of the semester felt more abstract. It was quite illuminating for me.

shagie11 days ago
Ablaut reduplication is my favorite thing from linguistics. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduplication#English )

Tic-tac-toe. Flip flop. Live, Laugh, Love. Zig Zag.

It's all I-A-O. Switch any of those around and it doesn't sound right.

Learning about the order of adjectives (big old red ball - try swapping any of those around) when I was dabbling in Klingon and the affix contests ( https://klingon.wiki/En/WordplayContest ) of noun suffixes having to be in a certain order ( https://klingon.wiki/En/NounSuffix and https://klingon.wiki/En/RelativeOrderingOfSuffixes ).

shagie11 days ago
It's avoiding two distinct vowel sounds in succession.

Consider other variations of this rule.

In French, one would say "l'hôpital" rather than "le hôpital" because the 'h' is an aspirated breath (try saying "a aspirated" rather than "an aspirated") leading to an initial vowel sound.

In Irish, the word for father is "athair". To say "her father" it becomes "a hathair" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prothesis_(linguistics)

In Turkish, it can be seen with araba (car). "I saw the car" -> "Arabayı gördüm." (note the 'y' to avoid two vowels). Book is kitap and "I saw the book" is "Kitabı gördüm." Which doesn't need the additional consonant sound between the final sound and the "ı".

Whatever language you speak, it likely has some form of this rule.

And other languages have the quirk too (like the "a unicorn" or "a university"). For example, in French there's l’hôtel and l'hôpital. But if you've got the hedge... it's la haie... or even more egregiously, the marmoset is le ouistiti.

usrnm11 days ago
> It's avoiding two distinct vowel sounds in succession

That implies that English added a consonant there to avoid double vowels, but it's the other way around: it used to have "n" always, same as other Germanic languages, and then it was dropped to avoid two consonants in a row

tomjakubowski11 days ago
Spanish does something similar with feminine nouns which start with an "a" sound, like agua. las aguas, el agua. las aguas claras, el agua clara. but then for este/esta, it's esta agua and not este agua

https://www.rae.es/espanol-al-dia/el-agua-esta-agua-mucha-ag...

deliciousturkey11 days ago
As a native speaker of a language without articles, I find the English article system by far the most intuitive and easiest to learn of all the languages I have studied. Most other Indo-European languages have articles that you simply need to memorize, as there is no way to derive them from the word itself. Which I never manage to do.
nlitened11 days ago
You probably mean word genders? So you probably say it's sometimes difficult to derive the gender of a noun, hence the correct article
andoando11 days ago
Genders in language is seemingly such a needlessly pointless concept I am really confused as to how it ever developed.

I still feel Armenian is such a great Indo European language. No articles, no genders, completely phonetic, consistent verb endings, no particular word ordering

subscribed11 days ago
And to make things worse, genders differ between languages, say, German, Portuguese, or Slavic languages :)
smgpie11 days ago
As far as I know, articles of Ancient Greek adhere to roughly the same declension rules as nouns, with a little bit of irregular changes. And as for modern languages like Italian and French, their articles, while being irregular, are mostly inherited from Latin demonstratives ille, illa, illud, knowing this might help memorize the many forms.
olexsmir10 days ago
Are you talking about case system? If so, for me, a native speaker of a Slavic language, it doesn't matter that I was born speaking that language, I still use the wrong cases sometimes. The main problem with cases is that oftentimes they are irregular.
mauvehaus11 days ago
Fun fact an adder (snake) was once a nadder, and an apron was on a napron. This fun fact brought to you by The History of English Podcast.

https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/

Happily sourced in Wikipedia so I don't have to figure out which episode I learned that from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder <- see below the table in Taxonomy.

adzm11 days ago
And cherries were ceries from French, leading to the singular form cherry. Lots of neat little things like this.
Tagbert11 days ago
And peas was both singular and plural like fish.

"I ate a single peas" "I ate many peas"

People thought it was a mistake and generated "pea" for a new singular.

hrnnnnnn11 days ago
Swedish does a similar thing where it takes the plural of an English word as the singular Swedish loanword.

Kex = biscuit, from "cakes"

Keps = hat, from "caps"

amitp11 days ago
That is my favorite podcast of all time!

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