363 points•erwald•11 days ago•177 comments•

177 comments

patrickmay11 days ago
From TFA: "Eric Schwitzgebel writes that . . . There’s a huge cognitive difference between nodding along while reading something and actually productively generating a text. Two reasons: First, once the text is on the page, it’s easy to passively let the approximate word suffice, rather than thinking about word choice in the same effortful, active way we do when generating prose de novo. Second, as I suggested above, I doubt that human beings, even experts, have a good sense of all the factors that shape word choice -- everything they’re being sensitive to. You would have phrased it slightly differently, and even if you don’t know that, or why, a different signal is sent and received."

This is the best articulation I've seen of why simply reviewing and copy-editing does not provide remotely the same value as writing from scratch. I spent a considerable amount of time over the past two weeks reviewing and improving a work document that was the output of an LLM. Given the number of people involved and the final level of effort, I'm firmly convinced that writing it manually would have been faster and resulted in a higher quality product. Getting the wording right matters.

kelnos11 days ago
I really did like the author's framing there, but I think there is a different, simpler way to put it:

Why would you think that asking someone else (that is, another human) to write something (and then reviewing it) is the same thing as writing it yourself?

You may trust the other writer's opinions and knowledge, but it will not have the same tone, structure, word choice, understanding, or narrative flow as it would if you were to write it yourself.

And when it's an LLM, you should not trust it's "opinions" and "knowledge", because it does not have either of those things. The appearance of those things is just that, an appearance.

kolinko11 days ago
> you should not trust it's "opinions" and "knowledge"

How do you recognize someone as having true opinions and knowledge from someone having just appearance of them?

hnlmorg11 days ago
Except that there are such things as speech writers, whose job is literally to write prose in the voice of the person who’s going to read it.

And there are countless other jobs out there where people are the “voice” of another party. From those who manage social media presence, to PR firms, to copyrighters, all who put statements out on others behalf.

There was already an industry of professionals whose job it was to have others write things on our behalf, and that existed long before LLMs were a thing. What LLMs did was make that that service available much more cheaply.

card_zero11 days ago
There's knowledge in books, and it's ingested all the books, so it does hold knowledge. But I guess that's not how you mean it.
gyulai11 days ago
A workflow I've recently discovered for myself that provides a kind of middle ground: I'll ask the LLM to write a first draft in a language that isn't the one the piece should ultimately be in. Then I'll use the LLM's first draft as a blueprint, to write a first draft myself in the intended target language. This fights my brain's temptation to just shut off, and forces every word choice to actually be mine. Then I'll hand that over to the LLM for editorial suggestions and iterate from there.
telesilla11 days ago
Excellent idea, I'll try this. And for those who don't speak a second language other than English, you could use leet.
dkga11 days ago
Wow, love this! Could even match with a language I am actively learning so it helps that as well!
BatFastard11 days ago
I use an antagonistic agent to review and refute its findings, works great.
bulbar11 days ago
> First, once the text is on the page, it’s easy to passively let the approximate word suffice, rather than thinking about word choice in the same effortful, active way we do when generating prose de novo.

Meanwhile, me, as an English non-native speaker, ended up discussing two sentences I want send to HR for ten minutes while applying to a job.

I do believe there's generally a bias to accept something that's already written. The much bigger reason though is why you let somebody else write it to begin with.

It might just be that not thinking carefully about every sentence/wording was the exact thing that made you use AI to begin with.

> I spent a considerable amount of time over the past two weeks reviewing and improving a work document that was the output of an LLM.

I had the same experience with texts where I have a very detailed expectation of the desired result. This is just a general limitation. For code, there's the saying "the precise description of the solution is already the code". Describing X is a simplification of X, oftentimes it's fine guess the gaps. But when it's not, it didn't help to describe X, you have to manifest X itself.

lokar11 days ago
Writing is thinking. In many situations where we are called on to write, what is actually needed is thought.
conmod27811 days ago
What if I am using Claude as a rubber duck where Claude is the crowdsourced version of all the human thoughts on that topic. It is rerouting all the thoughts ever recorded on that topic through the chatbox to me. Something synergistic could emerge.
itsalwaysgood11 days ago
Careful consideration is needed. Word selection, grammar, all while keeping the reader in mind. You're sending a message, afterall, so the message should be readable.

And then if you want to tell a message with a different tone, again, you must consider differently.

The considering can be strengthened with exercise.

I can't imagine worrying about signaling as I write: what a huge distraction.

The problem is: this type of thinking and writing takes a lot more time and attention.

How much consideration should you put into a message? It's a personal answer, but also one that can be constrained by time.

itsalwaysgood11 days ago
It's probably annoying the way I oversimplify things, but you reminded me of something I read somewhere.

Some Jazz musician was asked to define Jazz.

He couldn't really, his answer was something like: 'I don't know. But I'll know when I hear it'.

To add something to the discussion directly: thinking requires vocabulary. Vocabulary is the currency of thought.

You can usually express an idea with a few thoughts, or many. The audience, and amount of details chosen should always be kept in mind. Writing helps you to remember vocabulary and word choice when expressing ideas.

jameshart11 days ago
Use AI to write things for you to read that you wish someone else had written. ‘Give me a summary of the research on this topic’; ‘Write a report on this data to help me make a decision’. ‘Take this transcript of a meeting and write me the email it could have been’.

Don’t use AI to write things that you are producing for someone else to consume.

kelnos11 days ago
I think that's somewhat reasonable, but not always: the effort of researching and of writing yourself will teach you better then reading something someone else wrote, especially an LLM that will get things wrong in surprising ways that a human would not.

I'm not saying you should never do this: our time is valuable, and we shouldn't spend it on things that are not genuinely worthwhile to us if we can help it. But we're still losing something by having an LLM write for us, even if the intended audience is just ourselves.

dofm11 days ago
This is 100% my take. It's nice and easy.

I do not personally even think AI is useful for editorial purposes; I would rather read and re-read my own text and edit it down (which, despite my overlong comments here, I actually do), than have someone else do it. The reason is simple: editing is my search for the clearest way to express my thoughts.

I tend to turn grammar checkers off, but leave spelling checkers on, because they catch typos and a handful of my spelling gremlins like "liaise".

bdangubic11 days ago
I am someone else, if AI can write something that I want to and can consume then it can do the same for other’s consumption. Perhaps a disclaimer would be nice, “co-written with ____” but I see no difference between the two though of course I understand what you are trying to convey conceptually
ssl-311 days ago
When I seek input (whether passively or actively; it doesn't matter) from another person, then I generally want that person's input. I want their words.

They can be broken and jumbled, or terse AF, or combine to be Pulitzer-quality prose. Either way: I want to consume their own unique human expression of a concept.

There's value in raw human expression, including in the missteps.

If I instead want the regurgitated waggyings of a bot, then: I know how to get that on my own.

We've all got web browsers and pocket supercomputers. We've all (well, most of us) been alive and aware of LLMs since their recent rise from infancy.

It's a no-brainer for us to paste some paragraphs into our favorite chatbot and get a summary or an artificial expansion or whatever else we wish to have. If that's what our goal is, then we can do that on a whim -- and we can still retain the original expression.

But doing it on our behalf is deleterious, unsettling, and unhelpful. It has negative value to the beholder.

boredatoms11 days ago
There is a higher tolerance for LLM-isms if you asked an LLM to write something for you

Elsewhere it’s painful and irksome when you didn’t ask for it

drawfloat11 days ago
But the reader cannot be sure they ARE understanding what you are trying to convey. Maybe the LLM added something you never thought of, maybe it made form to your various thoughts in a way that isn't actually true to the way you would have communicated them if you did it yourself.

The exercise of writing is an important step of actually understanding your own thoughts properly. Readers are reading to get a sense of your own experience and ideas on the topic, if it turns out you didn't actually write the final thing yourself they'll always feel a sense – in whatever way – of being conned by the author. Intentional or not.

Technical documentation, where what the reader wants to come away with is the clear facts on what something does and how to use it/whatever, is a different matter. But even then editing is key – overlong text, unnecessary information, these will again fight against what the reader is there to get.

With that said, if you do want to do it, a disclaimer is at least upfront and may well show there's no intentional attempt to deceive.

AnimalMuppet11 days ago
There's a difference between me getting AI to write something I want to read, and getting it to write something you want to read. The difference is that I know me, but I don't know you.

The other difference is that, if I get AI to write something for me, I expect something AI-written. If I am writing something for you, you expect something that I wrote, not something that AI wrote.

bigstrat200311 days ago
The words of a machine are not of interest to me. I want to hear what you, the human, have to say, imperfections and all. Reading something written by an LLM is actively annoying, and it's not very respectful to inflict that upon others.
alas4411 days ago
"AI writing is vague and wrong in hard-to-notice ways" This one felt to me, at work I lost a lot of time re-reading and correcting AI prose that was launched to "summarize" a collective white paper, and where subtlety and nuance disappeared in ways that harmed the initial ideas/arguments I was writing about, but in sneaky ways.
D-Machine11 days ago
AI is very bad at properly handling statements that make heavy use of vague quantifiers (e.g. "some", "most") and also commits a lot of pretty serious logical fallacies. It is also bad at handling subtle logical negation, generally.

One of the most egregious negation issues I run into a lot is when I (or someone) makes a statement of the form: "not X" or "X is thus not true", and the AI then proceeds to interpret or summarize this as 'whatever is the opposite of X is the case'". This will cause it to go down a useless path investigating or disputing the opposite of X, which generally has no relevance or bearing on anything.

It also often very harmfully will replace your carefully chosen words with weirdly specific academic operationalizations or formalisms, then again waste huge amounts of text refuting / showing "problems" that result from that formalism, all of which again have no bearing or relevance on the original statement. An example would be you saying something like "intelligence, generally, must surely explain some of the differences in X", and then it will go "actually IQ does not correlate with X", unless you specifically tell it not to conflate psychometric IQ with intelligence generally.

Sometimes this is helpful, but the more specific / technical the domain, the more often you specifically have to prevent it from going down stupid paths that should be obvious given the expert context and wording, because it can seem almost hungry to try to catch you in some kind of insipid 'gotcha'. Much of these issues often clearly arise immediately from the first-pass "reword what the user said" part, given the reasoning traces.

michaelchisari11 days ago
Most of us have worked our whole lives to be writers in some domain: Code, documentation, specifications, product requirements, corporate communication, etc.

If we don't want to be writers, then we have to be editors. And editing is an entirely different job and it's not an easy one. In many ways it's harder.

Especially when LLMs love writing novels when all we need is a short story or less.

bluefirebrand11 days ago
A big part of the reason I'm deeply resentful of AI is that I want to be an artist not an editor
rectang11 days ago
Instead of asking AI to write something substansive for you, ask it to critique your writing. Then use your own judgement as to which bits of advice to follow and which to ignore.

The LLM will always give you a full rewrite — don't use it. It always does too much, and persuading it to tone it down is a constant battle.

devindotcom11 days ago
AI can't critique because it has no critical faculty. It can only offer critique-shaped language. That may be useful for some, though.
manmal11 days ago
That’s not entirely true. High end models will point out things that are misrepresented or plain wrong, and this will often be accurate.
dwaltrip11 days ago
Potayto, potahto
vanschelven11 days ago
I can't help but think that some of the arguments here apply equally well to writing _code_ as they to to other substantive writings.

Writing code is thinking, AI code is often vague and wrong in hard-to-notice ways, and the (human) reader of code is the one that pays the cost for this later.

The cost/benefit analysis may still work out differently for code though...

perrygeo11 days ago
I never use AI for writing but do so regularly for code. They are quite different to me.

My reason: code can be checked objectively. I can run it and confirm it works. I don't get attached to it. I don't feel pride in it (even when I write it by hand). Code just is. It's lifeless, inert, and entirely replaceable.

How do I do the equivalent for prose? How can I tell if my words "work"? Do they clearly convey my ideas to the intended audience? There's an element of subjectivity here forces me to identify personally with the prose.

Code has no such personality. I don't tie my identity or ego to code the same way I would an essay.

layer811 days ago
> My reason: code can be checked objectively. I can run it and confirm it works.

Running the code only confirms that it works with the precise input, in the precise environment, under the precise circumstances you run it under. It doesn’t ensure that the code is correct. Thinking through the code, on the other hand, lets you consider all possible cases. It’s the difference between experiment and (mathematical) proof.

For an objective correctness proof, using a formal language is indispensable.

bluefirebrand11 days ago
> I don't feel pride in it (even when I write it by hand).

Hard for me to imagine. You feel no pride in using a tool to accomplish a goal?

> Code has no such personality. I don't tie my identity or ego to code the same way I would an essay

Code certainly does have a personality. When working with teams for a while you can absolutely get a sense for which person wrote what code in a codebase, just by subtle little tells.

You may not tie your identity or ego to it, bully for you, but for me I take a lot of pride in writing clear and maintainable code that contributes to big projects in meaningful ways.

Maybe the problem with software is there's too many people who treat writing code as a mere means to an end, instead of a very important part of the process.

vanschelven11 days ago
Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute. -- Hal Abelson
calebkaiser11 days ago
I understand the distinction you're drawing, but in my experience, it gets a lot blurrier as a project evolves. Caveat that I use LLMs all day and have for quite some time, so I'm coming from a positive perspective.

The danger for me in LLM code is the same as in writing, it's just that I'm not typically writing at the same scale as when I'm building something. The final piece when I'm writing is usually a message or a 1,000 word article at most. So I'm naturally going to analyze it quite intensely, because I can afford to. And I don't really use LLMs for this at all. I use them for things around writing (research, interrogating ideas, situationally specific stuff, mapping, visuals, publishing, etc.) And the code equivalent to an essay or message would probably be something like a single script, or the sort of thing I'd write as example code when I'm teaching. In those settings, again, LLMs can be helpful, but I'm still going to be really opinionated at a highly detailed resolution.

But a codebase is more comparable to a novel than an essay. Or more directly, the writing in a codebase is usually the documentation, which grows commensurately with the codebase. And the real LLM risk here is the drift that can happen over the course of many epics or "chapters" as the LLM writes "code that works but is imprecise and probably shouldn't work this way" or introduces weird new terminology that neither of us can precisely define. Worse, this usually becomes obvious down the line, and I have to parse through the verbose constructed world the agent has created to trace the issue back. That's a big cognitive tax, because I'm holding these weird parallel worlds of "How did the LLM's alien brain get here within the bounds of the contracts" and "What do I really want this to look like".

So I think it's fundamentally the same phenomenon, and we're all developing our skills around working with it in real time.

zylepe11 days ago
I was about to reply with the exact same sentiment. How often may be different from writing but writing code is often thinking.
lelanthran11 days ago
> I can't help but think that some of the arguments here apply equally well to writing _code_ as they to to other substantive writings.

All of the arguments here apply to writing code; Why would the quality of writing differe when writing prose vs code?

I cannot read LLM slop prose without getting mentally fatigued trying to figure out what it is saying, and I've discovered that the quality of the code it produces has the same effect on me.

Read the full thread on Hacker News →

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