198 comments

mmh000012 days ago
It is insane to me that judges consistently rule that the constitution doesn't apply because there's a "border" within 100 miles.

The 4th Amendment says, exactly:

   The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I do not know how that could be unclear. My cellphone is my effect, and arguably, also a "paper". Which SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED. But apparently, I'm too dumb to understand the sentence[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United...

rtkwe12 days ago
So the main argument is that in the time that was written and immediately afterwards we can look to see what they mean by that by how it was implemented. At the time it was understood that the government could and would search goods as they enter the country without warrants to enforce things like tariffs. I think that's a fairly reasonable interpretation of the meaning. Where I think this goes wrong (and maybe deviates from history?) is the conflation of papers and other digital records now with physical goods, historically were people's papers searched as they entered the country (beyond say looking through them to find hidden goods, I mean reading and examining letters and records)?
hdgvhicv12 days ago
The problem when you rely on unclear laws that haven’t been modified for 250 years is they haven’t been modified for 250 years.

The scale of surveillance now wasn’t even thinkable back then. The ability to encrypt. The bandwidth and latency of communication. The sheer nunber of people, the research into manipulating minds. Does the second ammendment apply to an f35 or a tank? Well it doesn’t really matter, they clearly weren’t in scope when it was written. There were no wiretapping laws in the constitution because there was no wires. unreasonable in 1780 was different to unreasonable today.

The US has famously failed to update its legal framework via the legislative branch, so It’s upto the judicial branch which seeks to be about interpreting what some wealthy farmers from 250 years ago thought, rather than asking what laws make sense today.

alistairSH12 days ago
But the 100 mile rule? That covers damn near everybody in the US (>200 million, or 66%, give or take) subject to warrantless searches on the whim of whatever the police want?
eli12 days ago
I think they should have to pass a new amendment to fix or clarify when the Constitution seems to say something contradictory. Court shouldn't be able to just decide the 4th Amendment means something weaker than what it plainly says.
Zak12 days ago
> It is insane to me that judges consistently rule that the constitution doesn't apply because there's a "border" within 100 miles.

People keep misconstruing this.

The border search exemption only applies when someone is actually crossing a border, and it does grant broad authority to search whatever they're carrying with them at the time. The authority to do border enforcement within a 100-mile zone around borders does not grant a broad authority to search. It does grant a narrow authority to do things like traffic checkpoints, but those don't permit searches for anything smaller than a person without additional evidence.

I do think the ruling establishing the authority to run checkpoints other than actual border crossings was wrongly decided and harmful, but it's not what's at issue in this case.

iAMkenough12 days ago
True, but Egbert v. Boule (2022) the SCOTUS determined there's no penalty established or monetary damages owed to you if Border Agents cross the boundary of the exemption and violate your Fourth Amendment right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egbert_v._Boule

https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-136/egbert-v-boule/

gpt512 days ago
To add to that, the ruling intentionally did not make a decision on two important distinctions:

1. Forcing you to unlock - in this case, Alisigwe unlocked their phone willingly after being asked.

2. Forensic extraction - the ruling does not give authorities the power to run a sophisticated off-site break-in on your phone without reasonable suspicion.

So if you are a US citizen, and you are willingly unlocking your phone at the border (or you don't have a passcode), the Fourth Amendment no longer protect you from a suspicionless manual search of the phone at the border

ReptileMan12 days ago
If you torture the US constitution enough it will eventually confess.

There are a lot of issues that fail the constitutional grep test yet somehow they are deemed (un)constitutional. The constitution was written to protect the people and states from the overly zealous congress. Not to fix the situation in which the congress is so dysfunctional that the judiciary has to replace it.

wat1000012 days ago
The word "unreasonable" leaves the entire thing up to interpretation. Is it "reasonable" to search a traveler's phone with no indication of any wrongdoing? You'd probably say no. I'd say no. The courts say yes. Neither answer is objectively right or wrong according to this text.
mywittyname12 days ago
We gave the government the ability to police itself and there's no punishments for poor rulings.

The structure of the Supreme Court is foolish. It made sense initially, having the people who drafted the constitution adjudicate it. But I think it would be better to drop SCOTUS all together, letting the Federal courts sort out their disagreements via consensus. Or have a review panel setup like the House (elected, population based) who have the ability to override rulings and censure/discipline judges who make poor rulings.

Either way, we need more people involved in the process.

fsiefken12 days ago
This happened to me last month in Halifax Canada, I wanted to board a transfer flight to Amsterdam, going through Boston. I was stopped as I had salts with me from a buddhist relic I couldn't exactly identify. The machine said it contained a primary explosive (silver azide). I was ordered to give my access code to my iphone and 3 suspicious screenshots were found I made 2 years ago about the Iran/Israel war. I said I'm interested in geo-politics and watched the news. I was barred from the US for life - it was said that it could have been much worse. When I wanted to go to the main airport hall a number of canadian police officers arrested me and drove me handcuffed to a cell. I was asked if I wanted a lawyer and they arranged a phone call. The lawyer said I would spend to nights in a cell and then she would come to prepare my case and was strongly advised not to talk to people before that. I was released from my cell 7 hours later that evening after a thorough and friendly conversation with the canadian special police. I can understand that security don't want to take any chances with people carrying supposed explosive powders on an airport, so the system was doing it's protective job. That day there was a threat alert I heard later. A week later I heard from the person who gave me the relic (I was on retreat) that the border guard contacted them and said it was a false positive (what I suspected at the time, but I didn't dare argue against the machine results).
matheusmoreira12 days ago
> suspicious screenshots were found I made 2 years ago about the Iran/Israel war

> I was barred from the US for life

Getting banned for life due to wrongthink screenshots is pretty wild. No idea why screenshots would be suspicious.

> I can understand that security don't want to take any chances with people carrying supposed explosive powders on an airport, so the system was doing it's protective job.

I'd understand rejecting your entry on that day but why would they make you persona non grata forever? That seems completely out of proportion.

fsiefken11 days ago
I could go to the consulate in my country to ask if I could go to the US in the future.
dmos6212 days ago
I commend your understanding. I would have been losing my mind with rage.
fsiefken11 days ago
Thank you, I just went to a tibetan-buddhist retreat so I saw it as meditation-in-action
jm412 days ago
You were barred for life over a false positive? That's crazy.
teachrdan12 days ago
They were barred for life for having screenshots the current administration considers anti-American.
causal12 days ago
> I was barred from the US for life

I'm a little confused. Canadian police barred you from the US for life?

Also sounds like you did not take your lawyer's advice not to talk. Regardless, sorry you went through such a stressful ordeal over a false positive.

mixdup12 days ago
You can pre-clear US customs and immigration in a number of Canadian airports, including Halifax
what12 days ago
I’m confused why they would contact the person that gave you the relic to tell them it was a false positive? It doesn’t seem like something they would do. Why not contact you?
fsiefken11 days ago
I don't know, good question. They had my passport data and name - but not my contact data.
0xbadcafebee12 days ago
The problem with these laws isn't that they can search you at the border. It's that they can search you within 100 miles of the border (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception). The total number of people who live within that zone is 213 Million people, or 2/3 of the total population (https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone).
ArcHound12 days ago
Seems like a generally terrible idea. Why this cannot be one day changed to 200 miles on a whim?
mixdup12 days ago
It will, one day, be changed to 200 miles (or more) on a whim
chneu12 days ago
Patriot Act did basically that.
ramesh3112 days ago
The best time to delete all social media accounts and never post anything online with your name attached ever again was 10 years ago. The second best time is right now. This stuff can and will be used against you out of context 10, 20, 30 years into the future.
jjbinx00712 days ago
Also consider the fact that if someone else makes accounts in your name (whether maliciously or simply because they share the same name) I imagine this could be used against you.
esikich12 days ago
This has happened to multiple people I know who have deleted a Facebook account. Shortly after, a fake account with their picture and info popped up. I wonder if there are bots scanning for this waiting for people to delete accounts.
chorizo12 days ago
I haven’t done that since around 2012. But it’s rough since you get cut off from family and friends who exclusively use social media to stay in touch. Because I don’t use Instagram or fb, there are so many local events and opportunities I keep missing out on.
LeBit12 days ago
I always thought it was bold for people to post anything using their real identity.

You never know if a stance you have now will be frowned upon in 5 or 10 years from now.

I’ve heard you can’t pass customs with a phone without your social network accounts.

mywittyname12 days ago
You don't need to post under your real name to be IDed.

It's trivial to acquire a list of real people tied to email addresses, phones, social media. And that's what's out there for "normal" businesses.

Who knows what kind of tooling is available to people who serve on the boards of tech giants?

derwiki12 days ago
Maybe not all customs are created equally, but flying between Toronto and the states I have never had to show my phone let alone my social accounts. Also never seen that going up through customs.
derwiki12 days ago
Completely agree.

Does HN comply with CCPA requests?

petcat12 days ago
Customs has always been able to search everything without a warrant or suspicion when crossing the border. I guess this is saying that they can search the digital contents of physical devices/media as well?
otterley12 days ago
Not everything. From the case itself:

"To be sure, nonroutine searches, which are “more invasive searches, like strip searches, require reasonable suspicion.” Id. But we have held that “the label ‘non-routine’ should generally be reserved for intrusive border searches of the person (such as body-cavity searches or strip searches), not belongings.” United States v. Levy, 803 F.3d 120, 123 n.3 (2d Cir. 2015) (emphasis added)."

wrs12 days ago
It says they can manually search them. According to this, the ruling explicitly doesn’t say if they can digitally search them.
inopinatus12 days ago
digitally also means “using the fingers”, so never consent to a digital search without prior clarification

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