205 points•robin_reala•12 days ago•157 comments•

157 comments

Arubis12 days ago
Yes, and: the most important time to use your brain isn't in the loop.

That _is_ valuable, and will remain so, but the temptation to turn it off is there because the loop is good and getting better at what it does. Once you're in the loop, with the rare high-value exception of catching total mistakes nad redirecting, you're mostly choosing between similar-yet-reasonable options. This isn't so much right-vs-wrong as relativistic optimization. Letting the loop do the work will get you a mediocre result quickly, and that's usually fine.

The most important time to use your brain is _before the prompt_. Once you engage with your LLM and agent, you start biasing yourself, and its reasonable suggestions constrain your visibility into other options, other worlds.

First, use your brain. Then write the prompt.

xendo12 days ago
I don't agree. I'm recently a huge believer in Programming as Theory Building. The software creation itself is the part that makes you understand what you are building. It's impossible to understand things before you start building them, initial prompt can help you explore, but the idea that after that you can lean back is ridiculous. Most or maybe even all successful software projects are still heavily relying on the best software engineers. That's why anthropic and others are still hiring SDEs.
bunderbunder12 days ago
I somewhat agree with your point, but also I find that the major agent harnesses work really hard at tricking you into leaning back and not letting a proper understanding of what you are building to develop.

This isn't a new problem. I had it when working with outsource developers, too. In both cases, it seemed that just sitting back and describing what I wanted in plain English prevented me from properly wrapping my head around the problem. Which then meant I failed to develop the insight needed to find the really good improvements. Those usually consisted of identifying and removing the bits that were making things worse.[1] It's incredibly difficult for me to think of anything other than just adding more stuff on top of what's already there if I'm not getting my own hands dirty.

So I've been moving away from plan mode and letting the spin away on building large chunks, and back toward working in small increments and typing out the important code with my own hands. That seems to be the sweet spot. I'm still getting a productivity boost because there's more than enough boilerplate and trivial function definitions to farm out. (Easy prompt, too: "Implement `someFunctionStub`.") But I'm also not letting Plan Mode drag me back into the waterfall development pit of insanity.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Silver_Bullet

Arubis12 days ago
In broad strokes, I agree. You still have to make decisions and apply taste. It's _extremely_ unlikely that you'll have the full spec and shape and architecture of something large fully settled in your head before you start.

It's also unlikely that you're going to make those realizations, expressions, and decisions when your harness is asking you to choose between what _it_ identifies as being important decisions. If you're in the loop you're getting dumped on with lots of stuff that barely differentiates and you're biased away from catching things that matter.

If you're in the loop, use the loop. It's not a terrible construct. It will give you a mediocre outcome. And if mediocre is sufficient, you're done.

And here's the part that didn't make it into my prior comment -- if mediocre isn't sufficient, _stop the loop_. Play with what you've got. See how it behaves. Explore the edge cases yourself. Sketch how it works on paper, and how you want it to work, and think about how that should be constructed. Use your brain.

Then write a really long prompt (maybe referencing your files and notes and assets) to get back into the loop again.

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is that the loop is useful _and_ a mind-killer, and using your mind is _also_ high value, so do both those things, but don't do them at the same time.

khuston12 days ago
Good designs tend to have simple mental models. Some of these mental models are generic and apply across many projects. Or are even written into standards. I wouldn’t be too dogmatic about impossibility of understanding before building. Sometimes knowledge beats experience, and having an intuition for when can save a lot of time.
CamperBob212 days ago
That's great, but you and your family will go hungry as a result. If not this year, next year.

Your stance isn't new, if it's any comfort. I heard (and probably said) exactly the same thing when C compilers started getting good enough to eliminate the need for most assembly coding.

shelled12 days ago
That temptation is akin to giving in to maladaptive (day)dreaming. The problem is the dreaming, the noticing, the getting annoyed, and the feeling drained - all of these are happening at one place - being done by one entity - your brain. So how to train it to not to do that? Well, again, that same brain has to do it. What I am saying here is - our brains are extremely good at getting "used to". Because it "feels good" to the brain - at least in that instant. So any work that's happening on its own, feels good for most people. More the time passed in that "got/getting used to" state unchecked, more difficult it is to try and bring it back to not getting used to. Or control it, in an attempt to strike a fine balance.
Arainach12 days ago
It doesn't help that this is being forced from above. I agree you can't turn off your brain, but any time I argue that AI isn't the right tool for something management gets angry. There is a constant push to fully automate things, regardless of what those things are.

Even if I agree that you have to use your brain, when my boss is literally telling me to stop questioning whether AI automation is the right answer in team meetings/chats I'm just going to shut up and give them what they want.

awsglkhj12 days ago
Suppose I do something myself. I reap all the benefits, but it takes a lot of time, I may not have the expertise to do a good job, and I get all the blame if something goes wrong. Suppose I go to the park and find one of several guys who would do it for free. I get all the of benefits, he might do an excellent job, but, because there's no contract, I still take all the blame.

Suppose I actually hire a professional to do it. I receive fewer of the benefits. However, he's much more likely to do a good job, and the legal system provides a variety of ways to hold him accountable for the work.

Suppose I hire a professional, but then insist that he use legions of guys from the park to do the actual work, since that's going to be some much faster and cheaper per quantum of work. I also tell him that if he's unwilling to do that, I'll find someone who will. I also tell him that, since he has so much more unoccupied time now that the original work is in the hands of all those other dudes, he gets to supervise still more work done by other swarms of guys from the park.

At this point it should be clear that I'm not interested in quality work, but in having someone poised to absorb blame. I want a patsy.

Now replace "guys at the park" with LLMs, and replace "free" with "nearly free, but with no warranty."

intended12 days ago
Absolutely.

This is definitely a scenario in which management has bought into the hype and the people working with the tool are aware of its limitations.

Like markets, the firm can remain irrational longer than you can push against it.

Beyond a certain degree of effort on your part, it is not within your capacity to right the whole ship.

I suspect that the people who are most likely to be allies are the CFO and budgeting teams in the firm. I’d be curious what that function is thinking of the situation.

CaptainTaboo12 days ago
My company is doing this, too. It’s the reason I’m submitting my resignation notice next week.
drchickensalad12 days ago
I just did. Good luck my brother/sister.
bunderbunder12 days ago
Yup. This is coming from the top, and it's very much because the AI sales pitch that executives bought into is, "Automation can help you reduce head count."

That means that they really don't care if, right there in the moment, just doing the job is faster and better. What they care about is that the actual work is being done by humans, and that's out of line with their grand vision of getting rid of humans.

RankingMember12 days ago
> Even if I agree that you have to use your brain, when my boss is literally telling me to stop questioning whether AI automation is the right answer in team meetings/chats I'm just going to shut up and give them what they want.

Some would tell you that you need to find a different job with a better boss, but I'd say that this is quickly becoming something very hard to escape from. Investors want line to go up, and they all talk to each other about this "AI" thing that lets them cut staff and keep productivity, so naturally we're all getting it crammed down our throats.

runarberg12 days ago
Finding a better boss is like picking up the good cop. There are none. The whole industry has gone completely bonkers, and bosses are the ones doing it. The problem is systemic and if there are any good bosses out there, then there are systems in place to ensure that their ideals and behavior are not allowed to stand.
kixiQu12 days ago
Even pre-LLM: I've found a lot of colleagues (mystifyingly to me, both seniors and juniors) who really want to be able to turn their brain off when doing investigations into complicated cross-system behavior (feedback loops abound), and they don't like hearing that it can't be collapsed into a runbook. If a drinking bird (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_bird) on an Enter key could do it, I could rig something up so I wouldn't need you!
AIiscoming12 days ago
Or not trying to actually finding a root cause. Look i increased the storage for customer, problem solved.

No? You solved the symptom not the issue?

emerongi12 days ago
To be fair, that is often a reasonable tradeoff when there’s higher priority things the business needs to focus on.

I sometimes suggest timeboxing investigations for this reason. Spend 4h on this - if root cause is not found, just throw more hardware at it. Although I expect a writeup of what was investigated and ruled out, so that it can be used when someone returns to it.

jochem912 days ago
I think a lot of people are not able to reason to this point and then adjust behaviour accordingly. They probably reason to the point when pressed for it, but cannot resist the low effort and low resistance route of asking AI, and then probably make up reasons why in their case it's fine (typical behaviour to address cognitive dissonance).

Then again, for many people their job security doesn't depend on what work they do, it depends on how well they are embedded in the organisation. Before AI you also already had plenty of people doing their job at a questionable level, yet never seem to get fired.

stephbook12 days ago
Combining your thoughts, one could almost think that being a meat proxy works for quite a long time, before institutional inertia catches up.

Sounds like a quiet few years and then effort once demanded. So I guess... being a meat proxy does work, after all?

pixl9712 days ago
Work in support for most of your life and you come to the conclusion that there are a whole lot of meat proxies out there. In fact everyone does the meat proxy somewhere in their life.

> I started seeing people turn off their brain as they use LLMs

I mean, this was true for computers. "Computer says no"[0] was thing long, long before LLMs. I've had well educated, seemingly very intelligent people break when they couldn't log in steadfastly ignoring the [caps lock key is on] error message. This becomes even more "fun" and "interesting" when a person is being a meat proxy for some horrifically dangerous industrial process involving high pressures, excited chemicals, and enough rotational inertia to send god flying.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_says_no

shadowgovt12 days ago
I don't doubt using an LLM is deskilling. The question is whether it's the kind of deskilling where you can't farm if you don't know how crops work or the kind of deskilling where you can drive without knowing how to maintain your own internal combustion engine.

(In my lifetime, I've even watched mass cellular communication move "replacing your own tire" from skilled to deskilled, since AAA is always one phone call away for most drivers).

someguydave12 days ago
You can farm without knowing how crops work and drive without knowing how engines work
cyanydeez12 days ago
I'm starting to thing AI is the baseline of cognition and it matches the worst parts of humanity. Its just, we trained on the better parts so it's not so obvious.
tobbe206412 days ago
I think you missed the point entierly. The problem is not people turning their brains off, the problem is brains wony be needed anymore in the near future, not even meat proxy brains
dzink12 days ago
You are a photographer from the olden age. Taking a photo back then took forever. You are standing on a hill trying to get the perfect picture of a sunset. You measure and sort and calculate angles and light. A tourist stands next to you with an high-speed iphone auto-settings camera. They spin around and get thousands of photos from different angles while you are thinking and measuring your one shot. That’s what AI does. It gives you many shots at the same problem. The thinking guy with the one approach will likely lose a photo competition to one of the accidentally better shots of the person who tried a lot more. Make and filter now may be a better approach than overthink and try only once.
ssfdg12 days ago
I don't buy this analogy and I think it takes a depressingly reductive view of creativity. In both cases, the photographers had to take the time to go to a place, see a view they thought was worth capturing, operated their equipment to get a shot, and then had enough discernment to recognize which of their final products were worth something. Both the traditional photographer and the modern photographer can create images of value in different ways.

If you want to shoehorn AI into this analogy at all then no one is even bothering going hiking at this point, let alone seeing anything worth capturing. It would just vomit up endless permutations of statistically average images that look like the kind of pictures people take of landscapes.

wongarsu12 days ago
However, for writing software with AI the analogy still works. Just as the photographer needs to pick a shot worth capturing, you have to figure out software worth building. That often also involves some leg work: you need to understand the problem and user needs. Then you need discernment to figure out where the software works well, and which parts need improvements
augment_me12 days ago
Well yeah and then you can be liberated by the fact that maybe getting to the landscape and experiencing it and not taking the photo was the goal all along.

You can be creative and take the photo for your sake but at the same time accept that you can generate 1000s of them and many of the generated ones will be more liked by the general public than your creative one.

daedrdev12 days ago
There used to be no such thing as a woodworker. It used to be a number of different professions, such as the jointer, the cabinet maker, the planer, etc. now with modern tools it’s merged into one job
dzink12 days ago
Here is why it works in more than one way:

In the past few could afford to be photographers due to time and money. Many were not the most artistic or talented minds in the universe on the subject (you can’t find those until you give everyone a camera) but just people who enjoyed it and could make money off of it. Those who gained experience with the old tech were essentially AI models trained on statistically good probabilities of getting good shot. You had smaller selection and the model / brain quality determined what % of the best that photo was between 0 and 100% for any sunset. In modern days more people get a camera - more people with bad taste and more people with good taste. You also get more attempts at the shot - more photos taken, more tries. More tries means you are now preserving more of that moment from more angles and extending the time your taste people have to pick the best shot of all possible.

Your plethora of statistically average photos happen if you don’t have anyone filtering the ginormously increased output. If the problem is really valuable, someone will filter it. Possibly a model.

The real filter is value, not capability anymore. Do you have the empathy and taste to know what matters? The AI tokens/cost lets everyone make and become interested in making of someone hasn’t solved their problem. And then if search isn’t improved - everyone will just repeat the making of the same thing over and over. So if you don’t want repeated slop. fix search.

Or do you copy everything and everyone into making more of nothing.

Arodex12 days ago
Once upon a time, in Switzerland, there was a "chronometry contest" putting the best watchmakers of Switzerland against each other to make the most accurate mechanical watch and have it certified by the observatory of Neuchâtel (observatories were at the time the entities in charge of giving the most accurate time, based on reference star observations).

It worked for a time, and manufactures employed experienced, legendary even, watchmakers and specialized "watch setters" to create and tune to the best possible extent a few experimental watch movements. They would be sold as collection pieces, the firm would gain boasting rights in its advertising, and the experience informed the design and tuning of more mainline movements.

By the end of the history of (the revival* of) this concours, the winner was always Tissot, a second-rate company. What hides behind Tissot is ETA, a huge watch movement manufacturer for all of the Swatch group (dozens of brands, from Omega to the worst no-name stuff you can find).

What they were doing to win was just to pick the best watch movements out of the millions of basic, bland, uninteresting "workhorse" ones they were producing each year. Just by chance, there was always one combination of the hundreds of components, each with their manufacturing tolerances and variations, that would fit all together to make an exceptionally accurate movement.

In the end, yes, Tissot won repeatedly. But the concours is dead. And Tissot is still a second-rate brand making second rate watches. Nobody is interested by their watch movements, no collector, no historian, no customer.

btrettel12 days ago
This analogy seems strained to me.

The credulous LLM users Dan Luu is complaining about don't take the equivalent of thousands of photos of the same sunset. They take a couple photos at most, say "LGTM", and move on to taking a photo of something else, even if their couple of photos of the sunset aren't great.

As someone who will often compare different things, I think doing that usually takes time. I think LLMs can help reduce the time (especially if it's programming, not necessarily so much in other areas), but I'm not seeing many people use LLMs to try a large number of independent approaches and compare them.

bluGill12 days ago
The tourist has another advantage over your photographer: experience. They have thousands of photographs to look at and thus get a better scene of what makes things good. That is if you took both to the same spot and gave them one photograph (the phone's memory is almost full) the tourist is likely to get the better shot because they have a better idea of when to pull the trigger having seen all the possibilities.
Arodex12 days ago
I am sure the tourist can take hundreds or thousands of photos, and have every single one of them turn out wrong.

It's not as if he was covering every combination possible of exposition, composition, depth of field, shutter speed etc. The tourist doesn't even know the existence of those settings.

queenkjuul12 days ago
I really don't think so. A pro that knows all the ins and outs of working their camera for the perfect shot in the given conditions will do better than a one-off hope that the camera auto settings nail it. A professional literally spends their life framing shots, a tourist spams the shutter hoping one turns out and crops/filters/AI enhances their way from the best of the bunch to whatever will get likes from their family. No contest for a single exposure: the pro knows what they're doing, the tourist doesn't.
ninjascribble12 days ago
Really? The one who canonically doesn't consider lighting, depth of field, composition, etc... I can only speak from my own experience, but on average a typical person who doesn't consider themselves a photographer isn't going through the old photos on their phone and analyzing the quality and technique for future endeavors. They just want to send a fun picture to their friends and family. Nothing wrong with that, but it won't cultivate skill or lead to award-winning photography.
probably_wrong12 days ago
> The thinking guy with the one approach will likely lose a photo competition to one of the accidentally better shots of the person who tried a lot more.

If that were the case then photo competitions would have been upended by now by tourists who accidentally took masterpieces with their phones.

I can take as many thousands of pictures as I want but, without taking the time to critically review them to see what works and what doesn't, I will rarely produce a prize-worthy picture. And then there's the risk that I'll discard it anyway because I don't have the eye to separate the prize-winning picture from the Instagram shot all my contacts are publishing.

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