Deodands put a price on objects that caused death, sometimes providing compensation to bereaved families.

115 points•samizdis•14 days ago•42 comments•

42 comments

A_D_E_P_T11 days ago
The article belabors the point a little bit. A deodand was any inanimate object directly linked to a human fatality -- from a runaway cart to a falling branch -- and it was usually condemned and destroyed. (Or surrendered to the King and then sold, depending.)

There was often some hair-splitting involved, but the law of deodands was on the books for hundreds of years in England, and it reflects still older Greek and Hebrew laws where inanimate objects that killed people were cast out or destroyed.

The railways did contribute to the end of the custom. But this is not simply because rail equipment was too expensive to seize or condemn. Richard Posner, in The Problems of Jurisprudence, notes:

> [The law of deodands] eventually became dysfunctional but, as Holmes explained, the old law turned out to have a new use. The victim of a maritime accident may encounter great difficulty in trying to obtain legal redress directly against the owner of the ship that did the harm, because the owner may live far away, quite possibly in a foreign jurisdiction. By analogy to the law of deodands, why not treat the ship itself as the wrongdoer, and hence let the victim sue the ship in the first port in which it berths after the accident? Until the suit is resolved, the ship will not be allowed to leave the port unless the ship's owner or master posts a bond. In this way the victim can obtain and collect a judgment without traveling to the owner's domicile. Admiralty law adopted this approach and still follows it.

The interesting question is: Why were trains supposedly fatal to the law of deodands whereas ships were not?

I think that it has much more to do with the decline of superstition from roughly the second half of the 18th century on -- courts began to view the old law as an irrational relic, and it gradually fell out of legal fashion.

sharpshadow11 days ago
Good point about the older origin from Greek and Hebrew laws. While promoting for antique laws in blog style inspired from this article I came across the 9th century english law “while two men are working together, one of them is unintentionally killed by a tree that the other is felling, the tree itself shall be given to the dead man’s kinsmen”.
cucumber373284211 days ago
>The interesting question is: Why were trains supposedly fatal to the law of deodands whereas ships were not?

Because the state has an interest in trains doing train things unfettered, an interest in not pissing off local business, especially big business.

Some foreigner's ship on the other hand...

toast010 days ago
> The interesting question is: Why were trains supposedly fatal to the law of deodands whereas ships were not?

I would flip it around and say why is it necessary for ships and not for trains.

Train owners are typically easily accessible by the courts in which their trains operate. Ship owners much less so. If a ship owner has a potentially large liability in some jurisdiction, they may arrange to never do business in that jurisdiction again, but a train owner doesn't generally have that option. Especially in older days when the rail owner and the train owner were almost always the same. You can't just pack up your rails and go away when your trains cause a problem.

wormius11 days ago
I wonder how this mentality carried forward into modern asset forfeiture concepts (hey, we don't destroy those cars, we get to sell them and make cha-ching!)

I think the superstitions are still there, but hidden in a more "utilitarian" guise.

Ha, and of course wiki makes a brief note about this: In the United States

"In American law, the deodand has been cited as a source for the modern civil forfeiture doctrine.[6][9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deodand#In_the_United_States

thayne11 days ago
IDK, it seems reasonable that railway companies, some which had significant wealth and influence, used the decline of superstition as a superficial reason to get rid of laws that were inconvenient to them.
cmrx6411 days ago
what decline of superstition? America in particular was writhing with religious revivals, cults, and new age movements to the present day. religious adherence spiked massively, spiritualism absolutely exploded after their civil war.
jongjong11 days ago
The idea of compensating victims proportionally to the value of objects which caused harm is interesting and reveals an interesting mindset.

We are so far removed from this mindset nowadays that it seems illogical. But there is an underlying logic that; the more expensive an object, the more human labor went into building it, the more the owner should pay if it causes harm. There is a notion of "with great power comes great responsibility."

Had we still had these laws, we would look at trains, airplanes and AI very differently and we would never have allowed corporations to exist.

It does seem like there is a deep wisdom in there about the dangers of complex and expensive objects. The creation of complex objects and structures (including abstract ones) is a form of idolatry.

zrobotics11 days ago
This is only tangentially on-topic, but the opening anecdote about the floor collapse immediately reminded me of the Erfurt latrine disaster. If you aren't already familiar, count yourself as one of today's lucky 10k people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster

mitxela11 days ago
Very Dwarf Fortressy, except DF doesn't have latrine pits, so you usually have to drop them in magma instead.
amemi10 days ago
This is referencing https://xkcd.com/1053/
59percentmore11 days ago
>What would a medieval jury do, tasked to rule on an AI encouraging suicide or murder?

An interesting conundrum. Is the maker of the AI considered to have been practicing magic and summoning a demon? The user? What's the movable chattel object in this case?

senkora10 days ago
I'd probably consider the individual inference machine (GPU, TPU, etc.) to be the deodand in that case.
buildsjets11 days ago
Fundament: an archaic or formal term for the buttocks/anus.

Yer welcome.

Joker_vD11 days ago
Similar etymology to "foundation": both derive ultimately from the same Latin word, "fundo", just from slightly different nominalizations (fundamentum/fundatio). Fittingly enough, that word still means "foundation" in e.g. French, German, and Polish.
bryanrasmussen11 days ago
fundament is a base of anything, amongst which the buttocks was the fundament of the human anatomy apparently.
mannykannot11 days ago
A point of view best appreciated from a semi-reclining position.

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